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Here's my issue: If you upgrade one Veteran in a Command squad to a company champion, can you still give him a storm bolter?

Here's the rules:

1) Any Veteran may replace his chainsword and/or bolt pistol with: - a storm bolter

2) One Veteran may be upgraded to a Company Champion with a power weapon and and combat shield

What I want to do is give my Company Champion a storm bolter

However, since he has been upgraded to Company Champion, does he still count as a Verteran and therefore able to purchase other upgrades? I am assuming that he still has a bolt pistol since his weapon upgrades don't state they are replacing his previous gear.

Same question about the Apothecary, can he be given a storm bolter?

Thanks in advance for all your input

The company champion and apothecary are now (surprise, surprise!) a company champion and apothecary, and as such, they cannot take veteran upgrades.

That really sucks....

I assume they both still keep their bolt pistols?

Swap for Storm Bolter, then upgrade to Company Champion. There is no rule (currently) that states what order Model/Unit Options need to be purchased.

Edit: The Apothecary is out of luck unless he is FAQed to be a Veteran or they use the therm "Any Model" (DA just updated quite a few of this type of "errors", so it is possible).

temprus wrote:Swap for Storm Bolter, then upgrade to Company Champion. There is no rule (currently) that states what order Model/Unit Options need to be purchased.

this is a clear cut case of using the letter of the rules to defeat the spirit of the rules.

Champions are not veterans - they cannot have stormbolters - end of story. Same for the apothecary.

They do indeed keep their bolt pistols.

while there is no "rule" what order upgrades are taken. no combination of upgrades can result in an "illegal" set of wargear.

Read the GW FAQ response about a Boyz Nob taking a Power Klaw or /Big Choppa. It should apply the same here as both have a Model take one Option before another Option that eliminates the original Option as a choice later for that Model.

Except that the ork mob example goes in the other direction, saying that the nob takes nob gear and is then no longer subject to what happens to the boyz unit-wide gear selections if the nob has already switched his weapon for a Nob specific one.

The example in the veteran squad is more akin to a Nob buying a powerklaw, and then upgrading to a Painboy. Doesn't work since only nobs can buy klaws, and painboys by the letter are not Nobs.

exactly.

the nobs ruling doesn't cover a change in troop type.

I buy PK, then the Option for the Unit. I buy the SB, then the CC upgrade Ooption. Both times it is buying an Option followed by buying another Option where you can only purchase/apply them in that order to make it work. GW put the Nob example in a FAQ because people were saying it was an "illegal" combo, just as you are implying the CC one is, even though there is not anything in the current rules that block it. GW might choose to block this one but until they do, it is valid.

The spirit of the rule would have the champion running around cleaving people with his giant sword and shield. Thats how its supposed to work. By the letter it would appear to go either way. Not sure why you would bother with the upgrade though, kind of expensive for a squad that would ideally never not be in combat.

ShumaGorath wrote:The spirit of the rule would have the champion running around cleaving people with his giant sword and shield. Thats how its supposed to work.

You mean the spirit of the Fluff maybe? Which the rules don't allow anyway since the CC is not an IC and therefore can't actually "engage the warlords and champions of the foe to single combat" in play unless the rest of his squad has been wiped out. How does having a better gun stop him from fulfilling his role as an "annoyance buffer" for his Captain as presented by the fluff? Taking the SB means he still has his BP/PW/Shield combo to "cleave people" with after he has softened up those Units with some better gunplay before his squad reaches them. He can swap out the BP for a PP too or keep the Chainsword and swap BP for the SB or take a TH and choose whether TH or BP/PW is the best way to "engage warlords".

Well, holding a sword, bolt pistol, shield, and storm bolter would require more hands then he has. He has to sheathe the sword to fire the bolter as it is (which i would assume owuld be hard since the sword is rather large), and having a giant box shaped gun swinging from a lanyard on your shoulder isn't conducive in single combat. It's just kind of stupid to weigh down a clearly close combat oriented trooper with a gun nearly the size of his torso.

You couldn't have a BP and SB on a Company Champion. The BP would be replaced by the SB as the chainsword would be replaced by the Company Champion's powersword.

As for the SB not being a good weapon in CC, I'd have to disagree. It's Assault 2. By it's very nature, you are meant to fire it and then charge into close combat. With the Company Champion designed for CC, it seemed like a logical choice and fits with the rest of the squad having SB's.

For a command squad, SB's are well worth the 3 pt upgrade.

As for the SB not being a good weapon in CC, I'd have to disagree. It's Assault 2. By it's very nature, you are meant to fire it and then charge into close combat. With the Company Champion designed for CC, it seemed like a logical choice and fits with the rest of the squad having SB's.

Considering you cant sheath a stormshield that means your running into combat without a close combat weapon. Yes, its the perfect plan.

It's not a storm shield. It's a comabt shield. It straps to the user's arm and does not hinder shooting.

The PW/Shield does not replace anything, it is an additional weapon. There is not a "two weapon limit" anymore except in the codexes that still mention it like Daemonhunters. Otherwise the Honour Guard are in trouble since they start out with Boltgun, BP and PW. If you give the vet no other Options before he get to be a CC, he has Chainsword, Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon and Combat Shield (and Grenades) for weapons.

yea for my renegades I use SB any chance i get. SB are just awesome to use while charging up to an assault. i agree with temprus and frostreaver on that. anyways the way i see it, if there isnt a RULE saying you CANNOT do something, then there isnt a rule saying you cant do it. i dont care about the fluff side of it. put a SB on your champion man.

You can actually just take the Stormshield as it has been stated it is a completely seperate entry for them. It's to bad it cannot be purchased for an apothecary. :(

Yeah, I think it is perfectly fine to take options for a Veteran and then upgrade him to a Company Champion (which gives him the power weapon and combat shield).


Of course, remember you're going to have to make a model carrying all that equipment!

Yay for getting an entire extra sprue of terminator arms in a box, I have more stormbolters to give to guys than I know what to do with!