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Ok, so my question is about the wound allocation for Telion's "Eye of Vengeance" ability. Here is what it says word for word:

"Eye of Vengeance: Wounds caused by Telion's shooting attacks are allocated by his controlling player, rather than the opposing player."

It seems straight forward enough at first. You use the exact same wound allocation method, only the shooting payer gets to allocate wounds. Makes sense. But what if Telion is with a squad? All wounds fired from the same squad are supposed to be allocated at the same time...only they're going to be allocated by two different players. How would this work? Who gets to allocate wounds first? It could make a difference.

Let's say that Telion and a squad of scouts fired at a squad of five marines (4 bolters and a las cannon) Telion hits once and rends. The scouts hit once and cause a normal wound. Now Telion's controller gets to allocate the rend and his opponent the normal wound. If his opponent gets to allocate wounds first he could allocate the normal wound to the las canon and then another wound (i.e. Telion's rending shot) could not be allocated to that model until each model in the squad had received a wound. But if Telion's controller allocates wounds first, he would obviously choose the las cannon, forcing the normal wound on a bolter.

Now assuming that Telion's wounds were allocated separately from that of his squad (i.e. even if the las cannon was already assigned a wound by the defending player Telion's controller could still assign a wound to that model since he had not yet assigned a wound to it) the order would still matter. Telion's controller might not want to place his wounds on models which were already taking saves or, if the defending player went second, he could stack a second wound on a model Telion was going to kill with a rend regardless. So the order is important either way.

I wondered this myself when I first read him, because the only exception to normal wounding rules is which player gets to allocate.

My group has decided that they are a whole seperate group of wounds and don't actually obey normal wounding rules, so Telion can get two wounds and apply them both to a lascannon guy for example. But that's just a decision we made and really isn't what the rules say.

I can't really come up with a better reading than what you have, I think we just don't have enough information to decisively say it works one way or another.

Here's how I would play (and argue) this issue:

1. Telion's rule only applies to wounds that he personally inflicts.

2. Telion's rule only changes which player allocates these particular wounds.

Therefore:

1. Telion's rule doesn't allow his owner to allocate any wounds from shots that were fired by models other than Telion.

2. Telion's rule doesn't allow his owner to allocate both of Telion's wounds to a single model unless that's the only model in the target unit that hasn't yet received a wound in this particular set of shooting.

3. Telion's shots and wounds need to be rolled separately from the rest of his squad (just as you would do for any special or unique weapon).

4. In order to allow Telion's player to effectively allocate wounds at all, his wounds need to be allocated before any other wounds.

So a sensible way to play it, without breaking any core rules other than those you specifically have permission to break, and without making Telion's ability nugatory, would be:

1. Roll Telion's hits and wounds using separate dice.

2. Telion's owner allocates his wounds first.

3. The defending player allocates the rest of the wounds second.

There are other valid ways to play this but to me this seems the fairest/most balanced. Of course I am somewhat influenced by playing Orks, so I would rather not face a character who can snipe my PK nobz out of a 30-boy squad from halfway across the table in a single turn!

I would say that telion's controller's allocations trump the opposing player's allocation because the rule says tellion's controller gets to allocate the wound. If tellion's controller is unable to assign a rending wound from telion on a particular model because the opposing player has tried to allocate a less deadly wound to him first, the controller of tellion has then lost the ability to use tellion's special rule, which is to allocate any wounds he inflicts. So, to ensure that tellion's special rule can be used, I would say that tellion's controller's choice of who receives the wound trumps the opposing player's.

Boss Ardnutz wrote:Here's how I would play (and argue) this issue:

1. Telion's rule only applies to wounds that he personally inflicts.

2. Telion's rule only changes which player allocates these particular wounds.

Therefore:

1. Telion's rule doesn't allow his owner to allocate any wounds from shots that were fired by models other than Telion.

2. Telion's rule doesn't allow his owner to allocate both of Telion's wounds to a single model unless that's the only model in the target unit that hasn't yet received a wound in this particular set of shooting.

3. Telion's shots and wounds need to be rolled separately from the rest of his squad (just as you would do for any special or unique weapon).

4. In order to allow Telion's player to effectively allocate wounds at all, his wounds need to be allocated before any other wounds.

So a sensible way to play it, without breaking any core rules other than those you specifically have permission to break, and without making Telion's ability nugatory, would be:

1. Roll Telion's hits and wounds using separate dice.

2. Telion's owner allocates his wounds first.

3. The defending player allocates the rest of the wounds second.

There are other valid ways to play this but to me this seems the fairest/most balanced. Of course I am somewhat influenced by playing Orks, so I would rather not face a character who can snipe my PK nobz out of a 30-boy squad from halfway across the table in a single turn!

This is how I would interpret it as well.

I was curious as to what others thought and had a dim hope that maybe there had been some sort of clarification posted. Far too soon for that I suppose.

I agree that Telion's wounds need to be rolled separately, however the player with Telion gets to allocate wounds, it still needs to follow the normal wound allocation rules which says that you need to allocate wounds across the unit before you can allocate a second wound to a model. We typically allocate Telion's wounds first, then let the opposing player allocate the rest of the wounds.

When two rules collide (or don't say one way or the other) you typically use the lesser powerful. In this case, Telon would apply his wounds last.

The other option is just alternate it every turn. Its what GW has said to do in the past for such things as both models say "must go first" or some other such situation.

Really? I just heard to use the more restrictive on another thread.
I guess you oculd have Telion's allocation be totally separate and can go right over the top of the other wound allocation.

pavonis wrote:Really? I just heard to use the more restrictive on another thread.
I guess you oculd have Telion's allocation be totally separate and can go right over the top of the other wound allocation.

Even so the order would matter because which models were taking wounds would effect the second player's decision, giving the second player to allocate wounds a slight advantage. Unless you did something silly like wrote down which models you were allocating to and then revealed it at the same time. But that's just ridiculous.

I persoanlly can't see the confusion, rules in the Codex superceed the rulebook rules when different

In this case the rulebook says allocate rules at the same time. Codex says Tellion can allocate wound to specific models chosen by the controlling player.

As Tellion is part of the squad then all shooting is still done at the same time(with Tellion's rolls being rolled seperately) and you then allocate Tellions to models of choice before allocating his squads wounds as normal.

Then rolls the saves as you normally would.

Thats my reading of it anyway.