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Apologies if this has been answered already.

Lots of people are touting the trick of drop podding Sterngaurd with a Librarian and then teleporting away using the Gate of Infinity if they get jumped in combat. Is this legal? The rules for the Gate says that its a power used at the start of the Librarian's movement phase but I don't see a mention of it being used in combat (and if I recall, abilities that _can_ be used to move away in combat make some mention of what happens to their opponents in the description).

Next up, can a squad falling back make use of the Gate power? I can see this being argued either way.

What they mean is using the unit much like necrons use the veil of darkness, drop in, shoot at the squad and if you get charged in your next turn you then use gate again to get the rest of the squad (or whats left) out of danger again.

The Everliving wrote:Apologies if this has been answered already.

Lots of people are touting the trick of drop podding Sterngaurd with a Librarian and then teleporting away using the Gate of Infinity if they get jumped in combat. Is this legal? The rules for the Gate says that its a power used at the start of the Librarian's movement phase but I don't see a mention of it being used in combat (and if I recall, abilities that _can_ be used to move away in combat make some mention of what happens to their opponents in the description).

Next up, can a squad falling back make use of the Gate power? I can see this being argued either way.

Two very good questions that really need to be FAQ'd.

Unlike Veil of Darkness you are right that 'Gate' doesn't mention what happens to an enemy unit that is locked in combat with a SM unit that is 'gated' away.

Ultimately what it comes down to is whether you consider 'gate' movement (in which case it could not be used to pull a unit out of combat) or it isn't, in which case the RAW does allow it.

As for 'gating' a falling back unit, again I think the RAW allow it, although the unit would still be considered 'falling back'. With that said, both the Eldar FAQ (Skyleap) and the Necron FAQ (Veil of Darkness) ruled against allowing similar rules on falling back units so if you like precedents, I think you'd have to say no.

yakface wrote:As for 'gating' a falling back unit, again I think the RAW allow it, although the unit would still be considered 'falling back'. With that said, both the Eldar FAQ (Skyleap) and the Necron FAQ (Veil of Darkness) ruled against allowing similar rules on falling back units so if you like precedents, I think you'd have to say no.

Just as an add-on to what you are saying, Yakface, if the Gate counts as movement, then using the Gate on a falling back unit would require that the unit Gate to a point that is closer to the edge than it was before, right? i.e. it would be movement, and the falling back unit must end its move closer to the edge.

Actually even better was possibly using vangaurd, librarian, gate. So that you could gate out of a prolonged assault and then charge back in, but then I noticed no jump packs for libbys anymore. :S So insteated I am going with a single drop pod with 5 assault marines (no packs), Techmarine, Cassius and a Libby with avenger and gate. First turn I drop the pod blast the nearest squad with up to 4 flamers (one being the avenger AP3 template) and then move and repeat (at minus one flamer from cassius's combi) and finally assault. If on the following turn I get bogged down by counter charges just gate out and begin again. So far so good, but vangaurd would have been a better choice if the libby could have a jump pack.

Strimen wrote:Actually even better was possibly using vangaurd, librarian, gate. So that you could gate out of a prolonged assault and then charge back in, but then I noticed no jump packs for libbys anymore. :S So insteated I am going with a single drop pod with 5 assault marines (no packs), Techmarine, Cassius and a Libby with avenger and gate. First turn I drop the pod blast the nearest squad with up to 4 flamers (one being the avenger AP3 template) and then move and repeat (at minus one flamer from cassius's combi) and finally assault. If on the following turn I get bogged down by counter charges just gate out and begin again. So far so good, but vangaurd would have been a better choice if the libby could have a jump pack.

vanguard lose heroic intervention if joined by an IC IIRC

So your combo is better anyway


I think its a stretch to call 'gate porting' movement. If picking up a model off of the table is movement, then models in CC could not legally be killed, because picking up the model would constitute movement.

There isn't any mention of what the enemies in close combat do when their foes are gated away. There doesn't need to be, they don't do anything.. They just stand there all nice and bunched for incoming templates and blasts.

Necron veil might allow for a consolidate move, but the monolith door does not allow opponents to consolidate at all... at least in my version of the codex (never go against Yak on a necron ruling... thus I added the caveat)

True I was thinking they would just move (in the assault phase) and leave the IC behind. much like if I moved the unit or IC away from one another anyways. Ah, well current combo seems to work just fine . But that new "if you are within 2" you auto group" rule is really getting confusing. Yesterday someone was telling me my own character joined a squad because it got within 2" of another unit when it ended a "run" move in the shooting phase. I was like, but IC's can only join and leave during a move phase. So I am starting to confuse myself all over since there are so many ways for a character to get within 2" of a unit (or mutliple in which case I still don't know which unit he is in )other than the normal move phase. Gonna have to re-read the rules on that 2" join rule again tonight see if I can clear it up in my own head.

Yakface:

While those questions might arise in the context of figuring out how to apply the rule, I think they can be easily answered by slotting the rule into the space described by the usual 40k rules. We don't need any FAQ to answer them any more than we need an FAQ to answer the pressing question of whether Chaos Daemons can assault after making a Deep Strike move because Lesser Summoned Daemons can assault after making a Deep Strike move.

Gate of Infinity doesn't mention what happens to the enemy if the unit is locked in combat when the Gate of Infinity psychic power is used.

That's good, in a way, because it is a premise of the 40k rules that unless exceptions to general rules are explicitly mentioned, then we follow those general rules.

Those general rules say that a Deep Strike count as having moved in that movement phase (paraphrase, p.95, Rulebook).

And units that are locked in combat during their movement phase cannot move away during that movement phase.

Hence the Gate of Infinity does not mention what happens to an enemy unit that is locked in combat with a Space Marine unit that has used the Gate of Infinity psychic power because that Space Marine unit cannot use the Gate of Infinity psychic power to leave a combat that it is locked into.

This is unlike the 'Ere We Go! psychic power where explicit provision is made for what happens to enemy units that were locked in combat with an Ork unit that Deep Strikes thanks to that power.

Likewise, I don't think that a unit of Space Marines that are falling back can use the Gate of Infinity psychic power, since the power is a Deep Strike move and the unit is required to make a Fall Back move.

Nurglitch wrote:
Likewise, I don't think that a unit of Space Marines that are falling back can use the Gate of Infinity psychic power, since the power is a Deep Strike move and the unit is required to make a Fall Back move.

I do agree with you on the 'gating' out of close combat, but the thing is much of the Deep Strike rules tend to indicate that it is indeed a specialized form of movement. For example (on page 95) it says: "In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle"

And: "In that turn's Shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous Movement phase."


These two statements (among a few others) do reinforce the idea that Deep Striking is movement and the close combat rules say (p40): "While a unit is locked in combat it may only make pile-in moves and may not otherwise move or shoot."


So when you take these ideas together I think it is reasonable that some players may feel that the RAW does not allow the 'gate' to be used to pull models out of CC, which is precisely why I think it should be FAQ'd.


The 'falling back' issue is even more troublesome because now tests to regroup are made right before you move the unit and there is no restriction on when in the movement phase you have to move that falling back unit. Since 'Gate' is done at the start of the movement phase I can totally see some people trying to claim they can 'gate' a unit out of a situation where they wouldn't be able to regroup (within 6" of an enemy, for example) into a situation where they can regroup and then wanting to take their test to regroup.


Again, I don't think the RAW supports this as I think Deep Striking is technically movement so the unit would have to take its test to regroup before moving. If it passes the test it can only regroup and if it fails the test it must make a fall back move.

But I do think these issues are nebulous enough that they do warrant some clarification.

Yakface:

The Deep Strike rules don't reinforce the idea that Deep Striking is movement, they establish that a Deep Strike 'counts as', is equivalent to, as moving.

If a unit counts as moving, then rules that apply to moving apply to them unless specified otherwise. This should be clear to players that have read the rulebook, and does not require an FAQ.

Likewise, if a unit is Falling Back at the start of the movement phase it must make a Fall Back move. If a unit rallies, then it cannot otherwise move during that movement phase and since it is no longer the beginning of the movement phase taking a psychic test for Gate of Infinity is out of order.

A player that is attempting to use the Gate of Infinity psychic power to move a unit that is Falling Back is blatantly ignoring the rules.

If players find these interactions of the rules nebulous, then they should read the rules more closely and with more care. Faint hope, eh?

So is the short answer NO to both? No you can't gate out of combat, and no you can't gate a unit that's falling back?

I think you can use it in combat there isn't any rules for not using psychic powers in CC ; none that I could find restriction wise other than on shooting attacks.


Gate is particularly strange; I would be surprised to see the FAQ say you cannot jump out of CC with the unit.

I think the issue is what does the unit do that is left behind? Do they get a consolidate?

I see gate as a full time Veil of Darkness, so "jumping" out of CC is just a normal use of the power. The Enemy gets a consolidation move.

Well, if Gate "counts as" moving, then why couldn't a falling back unit use Gate as its movement? If you have a special movement mode, such as jumppacks, you fall back 3d6 inches, so you are using that special movement mode. Why is Gate different?

In fact, the jumppack unit has to fall back 3d6 inches (not optional, and you can't "choose" to be walking for the turn), thereby using their special movement mode - does that mean you have to use the Gate?

I'm hoping Gate will be clarified in the upcoming rule errata for the space marine codex.

Boss Ardnutz:

Correct.

Nurglitch wrote:
Those general rules say that a Deep Strike count as having moved in that movement phase (paraphrase, p.95, Rulebook).

I think that says that deep striking is NOT movement, but the models count as having moved anyway. If it was movement, it would say "Deep striking counts as the unit's movement for the turn" not that the unit counts as having moved.
In other words, the deep strike is not stated to count as movement, but that the unit counts as being moved. That tells me that while the rules for having moved apply to the unit, the movement rules do not necessarily apply to deep strike.

I can check the exact working in a bit here when I am home from work, but it seems to me that Deep Strike is something else entirely than movement. It just takes the place of movement for models that do it.

Wehrkind:

Yes, Deep Strike takes the place of movement for models that make such an action. It counts as movement.

Surely you can tell the difference between 'is' and 'counts as'?

Note well that I did not say 'Deep Strike is movement'. I said: "The general rules say that a Deep Strike counts as having moved in that movement phase (paraphrase, p.95, Rulebook).

Disagree with pretty much everything Nurglitch says.

Not because I use Gate + Librarian, but because his logic is nothing of the sort and he doesn't actually play the game.

I think Yak raises valid points (and I share the concerns) but without GW giving us a FAQ (a real one, not that DA nonsense) without the prohibition being stated as you cannot do this deep strikers can leave combat.

I note the swooping hawks have somehow not been mentioned in all of this, probably because they don't scare anybody and sternguard do.

Interesting.

Stelek:

So now you're not just making up bullshiat about the rules, you're making up bullshiat about me?

What's bizarre here is that you're making an argument that there nothing in the rules saying you can't use Gate of Infinity to leave a close combat.

That's not how Warhammer 40,000 works though.

There has either got to be:

1. An explicitly noted exception that says you can leave a close combat using the Gate of Infinity, such as is included in the Veil of Darkness and 'Ere We Go.

2. An implicit permission derivable from the explicitly stated rules with deductive validity, such as that described by the Multiple Modifiers rule.

I'm glad you brought up the Skyleap Exarch Power. The Skyleap Exarch Power contains an explicitly noted exception, just like 'Ere We Go and Veil of Darkness, permitting units to leave combat and describing what happens when they do.

The Gate of Infinity, unlike Skyleap, 'Ere We Go, and the Veil of Darkness, does not contain such a permission. And the general rules disallow units locked in combat from moving away.

Yak already debunked your argument, why should I bother?

I didn't make anything up. Don't take it personal that everyone thinks you are king of talkhammer.

You seem to be misunderstanding that Jervis writes rules that always need a FAQ, and when it comes we'll see what happens with Gate.

My guess is Gate gets to leave combat (else it's crap and the space marine models won't sell).

See? Good.

Stelek:

Typical, talk smack and then back down because you're intellectually incapable of proving your point like an adult.

Come on, prove me wrong. Take out a book, and show us the research and analysis that proves my opinion to be wrong. I don't think you're capable of doing so, but I'd really really really like to be wrong about that too.

I have already gone to the trouble of doing that reseach, providing the citations, quotes, and whatnot, and shown how and why the Gate of Infinity cannot be used to exit close combat and cannot be used instead of Falling Back.

What have you got?

Nurglitch, I don't LIKE arguing with you.

Right or wrong, you make everything a damn chore.

Reading what you write, trying to understand the bad English you use, figuring out how you not playing experience trumps those that do, I mean the list is long on why interacting with you is like wiping a childs bottom.

And I'm not your mother, for christ's sake, so I don't have to.

It seems to me that as the rules are there's no gating out of CC, when you are locked in combat.

As for the gating a unit falling back: Gate must be done at the beginning of the librarians move.
Therefore, if he is gating with a unit, he must be with that unit at the start of the turn.

If the unit is falling back, then the librarian must be falling back too. At the start of their move, they either regroup (and may not move any more), or (if there are enemy within 6" or the unit is not in coherency) they must make a fall back move instead of moving normally. I know gating is not normal movement, but it is a stretch to argue that alone means you can do it instead of a fall back move.

it would be cool though - the librarian warping his brothers out of harms way - however the rules as i see it don't allow it.

Nowhere in the entry for Gate of infinity does it say to move models that are locked in close combat.

There is a prescribed set of instructions for removing models, and placing them within two feet using deepstrike rules.

Even if you want to argue that deep-striking is moving (rather than counts as moving subsequently), the models are not even in combat when you place them using deepstrike rules... they are removed from the table. I do not see how that is really an issue.

Nurglitch - the wording does not explicitly need to state that this can be done out of close combat if none of the steps involved violate general rules.

Spif:

I agree, the rules for the Gate of Infinity do not need to explicitly state that a unit locked in combat can leave if (and only if, as I said earlier) if the general rules give permission for units using such a rule to leave combat.

But I disagree on whether the general rules give permission for units using the Gate of Infinity to leave combat.

The unit is locked in combat before the power is used, since they start the turn locked in combat, and in placing them using the Deep Strike rules you are moving them. That is why 'Ere We Go, Veil of Darkness, and Skyleap all contain specific permission, because otherwise they would not be usable when their applicable units are locked in combat.

Ah yes

"the Librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the table ..."
That does make it sound different doesn't it. Good point Spif - I guess I should read rules more carefully. That opens it up again for me.

Nurglitch wrote:Spif:
The unit is locked in combat before the power is used, since they start the turn locked in combat, and in placing them using the Deep Strike rules you are moving them. That is why 'Ere We Go, Veil of Darkness, and Skyleap all contain specific permission, because otherwise they would not be usable when their applicable units are locked in combat.

The unit is not even on the table at that point... how is it locked in combat? You do not move the unit at all until it is off the table...


Edit for clarification:

"Units already locked in close combat with the enemy may not move during the Movement phase." Obviously they are not already locked in combat when they are doing the moving.

The problem with terms like "obviously" is that they appeal to our intellectual vanity, and encourage us to overlook the evidence. After all, one would have to be stupid not to see the obvious, and none of us are stupid...

The evidence here is, at least in part, an explicit injunction by the rules that:

"In that turn's Shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously [ed: there's that word again!] count as having moved in the previous Movement phase."

So it seems to me that while it is 'obvious' that a unit that has been removed from the table is no longer locked in combat, it is a serious case of boot-strapping to argue further that they only count as moving when they are placed back on the board. The entire operation counts as moving.

In other words, they are locked in combat before they started moving, and being locked in combat is what prevents them from moving out of combat.

Unless it specifically states somewhere in the rules that removing a model from the table counts as movement, I don't see how you can make the claim that it is. Similarly, if it stated somewhere that removing a model from the table isn't allowed if they are locked in combat, that would be another reason to say that you couldn't gate out of close combat.

The rules are permissive, and tell you what you are allowed to do. You're allowed to remove models from the table when you use gate of infinity. No conditions are included for when you can or cannot do this, so I would assume you are always allowed to do it.

Any claim that removing models from the table counts as movement (and hence can't be done if they're locked in combat) should be supported somewhere in the main rulebook, and I'm not certain it is.