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Ok, I was thinking one day that the ability of gazghzkul to max the waaagh movement is a obsolete rule. Being as waaagh no longer actually gives you movement (in 4th it did because fleet of foot was an additional d6) now fleet (waaagh) just allows you to charge after running. So, RAW its a wasted ability, however one could argue that the run is waaagh movement and therfore you would be counted as rolling a 6 for your run movement. Personally I think its a wasted ability, I was just curious what others thought about it.

My group has no problem with using 4th ed Waagh as 5th ed Run with Fleet. Seems both simple and fair.

Thus old Ghaz will cause everyone eligible for Waagh to roll a 6 for distance moved.

I can see letting someone roll a 6 for there run move when using gazzy, however RAW it is a wasted ability as fleet no longer grants movement just the ability to charge after running. eiter way it was just something I was thinking about, I think it would be sporting to allow the ork player to move 6 for running with gazzy, especially if they rolled low for their movement with the turtle.

I think the rule becomes obsolete. There are plenty of other wargear/rules that are in the same boat with 5th edition. It still grants them fleet (assault after run), which is quite nice!

Homer

That's kida harsh. They already get Fleet through a normal Waagh.

The rules state that you count as rolling a 6 for your WAAGH move, which in 4th was a Fleet but in 5th is a Run. Same thing, different name.

I would consider arguing against the 6" Run move a serious dick move.

It wouldn't just be a dick move, it would be an aggregious misreading of the rules.

One of the amusing things about the Ork Codex is that it was clearly written to be pro-actively compatible with the 5th edition of the rules. Ghazghkull Thraka's Adamantium Skull, for example, is invalid wargear under the 4th edition rules because it contradicts the 4th edition Slow and Purposeful universal special rule that his Mega Armour wargear referenced. It coheres perfectly with the 5th edition version of that rule, which allows models with that rule to gain bonus attacks from charging.

In the Waaagh! rule, all friendly Ork infantry units have the Fleet of Foot rule with a single notable exception. The Fleet universal special rule in the 5th edition rulebook notes that it applies to references such as "Fleet of Foot" and confers the ability to assault after running. Since the Waaagh! is declared during the shooting phase, and the only movement that can be made in the shooting phase is running, and running is presumed by the general shooting rules, and the referenced universal special rule agrees that it is applied when a unit runs, the run is irrefutably 'Waaagh! movement'.

Ghazghkull Thraka's Waaagh! ability is hardly obsolete because Waaagh! is does not merely confer the benefit of Fleet, but also the cost of a casualty on a run roll of 1, and the automatic 6" movement not only negates this cost, but also the risk of variability in run movement and thus Waaagh! movement.

Nurglitch wrote:It wouldn't just be a dick move, it would be an aggregious misreading of the rules.

One of the amusing things about the Ork Codex is that it was clearly written to be pro-actively compatible with the 5th edition of the rules. Ghazghkull Thraka's Adamantium Skull, for example, is invalid wargear under the 4th edition rules because it contradicts the 4th edition Slow and Purposeful universal special rule that his Mega Armour wargear referenced. It coheres perfectly with the 5th edition version of that rule, which allows models with that rule to gain bonus attacks from charging.

In the Waaagh! rule, all friendly Ork infantry units have the Fleet of Foot rule with a single notable exception. The Fleet universal special rule in the 5th edition rulebook notes that it applies to references such as "Fleet of Foot" and confers the ability to assault after running. Since the Waaagh! is declared during the shooting phase, and the only movement that can be made in the shooting phase is running, and running is presumed by the general shooting rules, and the referenced universal special rule agrees that it is applied when a unit runs, the run is irrefutably 'Waaagh! movement'.

Ghazghkull Thraka's Waaagh! ability is hardly obsolete because Waaagh! is does not merely confer the benefit of Fleet, but also the cost of a casualty on a run roll of 1, and the automatic 6" movement not only negates this cost, but also the risk of variability in run movement and thus Waaagh! movement.

QFT

Nurglitch, I must say, I'm seriously impressed with the way your present and word your arguments.

I'm not. Just declaring that opposing views are 'misreading', and then changing the wording of the rules you state... is not a well worded argument.


Waagh is clearly written, and it clearly fits into the 4E ruleset. It does not clearly fit into the 5E ruleset.

coredump:

Please indicate where and how I changed the wording of any of the rules that I referenced.

Perhaps you can also tell us what what value of "clearly" you're using...

Ghazghkull Thraka's Waaagh! ability is hardly obsolete because Waaagh! is does not merely confer the benefit of Fleet, but also the cost of a casualty on a run roll of 1,

I have looked at the Waagh rule, and Ghaz's version. I don't see either of them refer to a Run roll...

If it did, it would make this conversation moot; that is the point. The rule refers to things that don't exist any longer.
Waagh gives you Fleet, check
Then Waagh refers to a "Waagh movement", there *is no* Waagh movement any longer.
Waagh does not give you movement, you have the same d6" movement, with or without Waagh.

That is why it is not 'clear', and the entire point behind this thread. You just declaring that this is 'misreading the rules' egregious or not, doesn't make it so.

The Waagh rule, as written, makes no sense, and does not fit into the 5E ruleset; clearly or otherwise.

Run is *not* 'irrefutably Waagh movement', you can Run with, or without Waagh; further, you can Run before, or after Waagh is declared.
You can make all your Run rolls, and *then* declare Waagh; thereby bypassing all of those pesky 1's.

Now, I think it is fairly easy to see the rules as *intended*, but that is not what you are trying to assert.

ork codex wrote:For the duration of that turn, all friendly Ork infantry units have the 'fleet of foot' rule (not Gretchin...) If a unit rolls a 1 when making this Waaagh! movement, the Orks start...

It's clear to me that 'this Waaagh! movement is referring to the movement the Orks make in that shooting phase, which allows them to assault due to FoF.

The entire Waaagh! section is talking about movement during the shooting phase, it shouldn't matter if it's 4th edition's fleet movement or 5th edition's run movement. When you Waaagh with gazzy, you get to move 6 inches.

edit: Traskel said it better than me

I think it's probably obsoleted until a FAQ changes it back, but don't feel like arguing much about that.

I would like to point out that if you do think Graz does this, you should also be playing that a roll of '1' during regular "Waargh! movement" rolls will mean units take a wound. That's implied by the argument about this special character's ability.

I'd be fine not worrying about the roll entirely in all situations for the time being, as the underlying rule has arguably changed.

Well, based on this argument, if you don't accept that run is the waaagh movement, isn't the only naturel assumption that the movement granted by fleet (an assault after running) is the waaagh movement, forcing you to roll a d6 to see how far you can assault, because we all love picking on orks.

The flip side would be ghazkull allowing orcs to automatically assault 6" through cover when he declares his waaagh.

how is waaagh! obsolete?
so, whats the chances of rolling a 6 for every unit with the special rule?
and i think the inv. save ghaz gets from it is more than worth it.

For the duration of that turn, all friendly Ork ... units have the "fleet of foot" rule.
...If a unit rolls a 1 when making this Waaagh! movement...one model suffers a singel wound...

1) Orks infantry units can "Run."
2) When a Waaagh is called, ork infantry units gain fleet with one difference (the ability to suffer a wound on a roll of 1).
3) The second paragraph refers to this special run move as a "Waaagh movement."

The run with fleet is called the "Waaagh Movement".

Fleet - There are many variations of this rule: Fleet of Foot,...

So Fleet of foot, which the Waaagh rules references, means the new Fleet USR.

... A unit ... may assault in the same turn in which it has run.

So at this point, we know that when a Waaagh is called, an ork player may run his infantry units d6" inches and still assualt. With the caveat that if a "1" is rolled for their run movement they suffer a wound.

Under Ghaz's rules:

...all Ork ... units automatically count as rolling a 6 for the Waaagh! movement they wish to take.

So the Waaagh! movement (which was defined previously in the codex) counts as rolling a 6 for the run movement roll and the units have Fleet. What's confusing about that?

It's not confusing budro, but defining run as the waagh movement is a big leap where you must apply logic to extrapolate from the situation the intention of the rule, it's not explicitly written that the waaagh move is run, and that is a point of contention.

I guess I just don't see the big leap in logic. The waaagh rules gives you a modified fleet. You already have run. While rolling for "run" movement while you have the modified fleet rule, you have the potential to do a wound on the unit.

My only reservation of calling the Run "Waaaagh! Movement" is that they had a chance to FAQ it and did not. The clearest thing to have done is state that Waaagh! movement is the Run.

Homer

its pretty simply, and evil since it gives ork boyz an 18" assult range (move 6", waaagh! 6", assult 6")
meaning they will get into combat quickly, means the use of trukks can be cut down a little, and free's up points for more boyz, kinda scary whn 180 boyz can charge 12" towards you, or 18" if they assult.

Homer S wrote:My only reservation of calling the Run "Waaaagh! Movement" is that they had a chance to FAQ it and did not.

Why would they need to FAQ it? "Waaaagh! Movement" is defined as much now as it was in 4th edition. You got a fleet movement in 4th edition, the same argument could be applied that in 4th edition this fleet movement isn't a "Waaaagh! Movement" and you don't get to move 6 inches, and that's the same logic that's being applied now. I think it's incorrect logic.

The problem is that "Fleet" has nothing to do with movement in 5th edition. They changed the rule to mean a different thing, so now it makes the Ork codex require a bit of thought or extrapolation. something RAW doesn't allow for.

The point there Nurgleboy is that nothing has ever been specifically cited as "Waaagh movement". Nothing has changed here, the 'Cite a phrase and ignore the rest' crowd has just latched onto a new topic.

The point is that Waaagh! Gives you fleet of foot and if you roll a 1 for the move you suffer a wound. The roll is no longer part of fleet, but is now called run. Some people are claiming that the run is now subject to the 1 rule and Ghaz's always roll a 6. Others are claiming that that part of the both rules are now defunct.

My point was GW had a chance to explain how they wanted it to work and did not.

Homer

There are two issues here:

Are the rules clear and obvious?
Can we figure out the best way of treating the rules?

My posts were to combat that the rules were obvious, and that anyone not agreeing was "aggregious misreading of the rules".
Though, I think we can mostly agree the best way to actually play this.


In 4E
Waagh gave the Orks Fleet, Fleet gave the Orks d6" movement. Thus, Waagh gave the Orks d6" movement, and that movement could be logically referred to Waagh Movement.

In 5E
Waagh gives the Orks Fleet, that gives *no* movement. Therefore there is no Waagh movement.
The Orks can Run, but they don't get that from Waagh, they always have that. Thus, there is no Waagh movement in 5E.

Thus the rules that refer to Waagh Movement can't apply, just like rules that deal with Outnumbering in CC no longer apply.


Now, we can draw some pretty easy correlations between fleet movement/Waagh, and Run/Waagh. But we have to admit that it is only a correlation... not the direct rules.

The 'house rule' or 'rule interpretation' I would recommend is that you must declare Waagh at the beginning of the phase, but then the Run movement is treated as the Waagh movement. (So a 1 is a wound, and Ghaz can make it a 6 for all.)

If you allow Waagh to be declared after the beginning of the phase, it allows some shady moves....

coredump wrote:In 5E Waagh gives the Orks Fleet, that gives *no* movement. Therefore there is no Waagh movement.
The Orks can Run, but they don't get that from Waagh, they always have that. Thus, there is no Waagh movement in 5E.

Show me where it states that the Waaagh movement is the movement gained from the fleet of foot ability, or where the Waaagh movement is ever defined.

That's the actual problem with the rules - it's never clearly explained what this movement is.

You can either assume it's a movement from an old ruleset, or you can assume it was worded ambiguously to work with both rulesets (it's obvious the codex was written with 5E in mind).

How can you argue that movement made in the shooting phase during the turn where you declare a Waaagh is not Waaagh movement, when there is no definition anywhere of what the Waaagh movement actually is?

Go too far down this path and you'll have orks assaulting 24".

Move 6". Run 6". Waaagh! movement gives an extra D6". Assault 6" thanks to Fleet of Foot.

Arguing that Ghazghkull's Waaagh! no longer works is really breaking rule 1.

IMHO:

running, fleet and waaagh! are all the same type of thing, but all vary in a different way.
i would say only 1 can be done per turn, so you couldnt use waaagh! and run.

The problem is a distinction between Rule #1 and Fleet. Fleet clearly no longer includes movement. Since Fleet no longer includes movement and the Waaaaagh! gives fleet, any reference to rolling a d6 for Waaagh! is now defunct. GW had a chance to say "Call the Waagh! prior to Running and on a 1 they squabble" but they did not. This would also have covered Ghaz's rule. Just because Orks lost a bit of rule, good and bad, other races are in the same boat switching from 4th to 5th. Anything else is a house rule.

Another way to handle this is similar to the gets hot rule for Plasma Cannons. Since you no longer roll to hit, you have to roll an extra d6 and on a 1 take a wound. Again, this amounts to a house rule.

Homer

Another way to handle this is similar to the gets hot rule for Plasma Cannons. Since you no longer roll to hit, you have to roll an extra d6 and on a 1 take a wound. Again, this amounts to a house rule.

Unless of course you read BGB pg. 31 under "Gets Hot and blast weapons"