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RTT Saturday had 28 show with a good mix of armies. The top winner was playing a very annoying though not entirely original eldar army. So anyone have ideas on how to beat this army? I don't have the list but it's the standard 2 Farseers, each with warlock retinue all on jetbikes with fortune running around wacking people with swords and can't be killed. He may have run into one or even two easy opponents but he wiped the board on all three. Two games he wiped his opponent out in 4 turns. One was an IG player and he charged the entire army at once on like turn 2. The rest of his army was guardians on jetbikes, some falcons and a wraithlord i think. I didn't get a shot at him but I'm sure this army is popular. So what beats it?

I played Demons. List below. I may not have been smart about the missons but I wiped the floor with my opponents. Ran into some trouble with mobility. I'd stack basically everythingI had on one side of the board and find myself short trying to hold objectives on the other side of the board. (all our troops WALK it sucks) If I had split up on the deploy, I'd probably been ok but I didn't know how well I could mow my opponent down.

First game, Tau classic. one stealth suit, 2 crisis units, 2 fire warriors, few tanks. I had problems catching him as he ran away. I deployed half of my army behind him and he was still too fast for me.

Second game, Necron cheese. guy always plays this, 2 lords with orbs, 3 12-man squads of warriors, 2 liths. I deploy, flame and mow. phased him on turn 4.

Third game, new marines, 3 tac squads, 1 scout, 1 dev, landraider, 6 termis, razorback and rhino. he spread out all over the board so I deployed everyone on one side and crushed him. bad news was his troops in the transports got to the objectives to contest when the game ended and I couldn't pop em open.

My list:
Great unclean one, breath of chaos
2 heralds of nurgle with breath
2x 6 plaguebearers (1 has banner)
2x 8 bloodletters
1x 9 pink horrors, changling (worked well)
2x 2 bloodcrushers
3 flamers
3 screamers
1 soulgrinder with phlegm
demonprince of nurgle, wings, nox touch, armor
demonprince of nurgle, nox tough, armor, breath of chaos

I'm tempted to try The Mask out but the lash effect is very nerfed in Demons. I couldn't handle the necron monliths at all (soulgrinder missed and he's all I got) so I'm a little worried on that but the warriors died like chumps. any thoughts?

See page 56 of the Marine Codex, Psychic Hood, also p 57, Null Zone.

Orks beat this army in a recent test match, except that the Seer Councils did not have the flamer template weapon 'destructor'.

I see advantages to bringing some Inquisitors along these days if you are a loyalist army of any type. It might not be the best psychic power, but there is 'word of the emperor'. 11/s do sometimes pop up on the dice. They can have old fashioned psychic hoods. Don't think that the Eldar much care for Land RAiders either.

Landraider-said that.

Grand Tactics-forget the Seer Council on Jetbikes. Go find some troops to kill and play for the draw, there is a theory in 5th edition that 'you can't win em all,', although I still think that Orks can.....

the standard 2 Farseers, each with warlock retinue all on jetbikes with fortune running around wacking people with swords and can't be killed. He may have run into one or even two easy opponents but he wiped the board on all three. Two games he wiped his opponent out in 4 turns. One was an IG player and he charged the entire army at once on like turn 2. The rest of his army was guardians on jetbikes, some falcons and a wraithlord i think. I didn't get a shot at him but I'm sure this army is popular. So what beats it?

How many points was this? How many Warlocks did he have per retinue. Two larger Councils on jetbikes mean that the army becomes rather small.

Grand Tactics-forget the Seer Council on Jetbikes. Go find some troops to kill and play for the draw, there is a theory in 5th edition that 'you can't win em all,', although I still think that Orks can.....

Orks are often in trouble vs Nids.

Dear Wuestenfux,

Might you post a Nid army which could give trouble to Orks at 1750 points for me and my son?

MG

that's kinda off topic don't ya think. The Seer Council thing I know can maybe be beat with a psychic hood but only loyals get those. As you saw, I play Demons. No hoods there. What does chaos, tau, IG and other armies do against a seer council mass army. Points were 1850 and the rest of his army was small but when you cant kill the majority of his points and they can kill you, your not in for a good day.

so how do you beat a seer council without access to a hood?

make him roll dice, I know he has a good save and a reroll but eventually they are going to fail, seers with locks on bikes aren't cheap, you may be better off murdering his gaurdians do deny him the ability to win 2/3 or the time

Sorry, my request to Wuestenfux is indeed off topic, just wanted to take the opportunity to make the request.

I don't know the Daemon Codex, so I don't know if they have a psychic hood equivalent.

IG are easy, any loyalist army can get a psychic hood, or two. And, given the toughness of your Daemon army I would definitely consider adding an ILord and an Inquisitor both with mystics to almost any Loyalist army, for the 4d6 range free shot. Hope your opponents aren't reading this! LOL

I don't know how often the army is actually seen. There is no figure for a WL on a jetbike. Many 40k hobbyists won't field stuff if it isn't nicely modeled, and the conversion for the robes isn't easy. I don't think there is even an example on Coolminiornot.com. You have to hack apart heads and arms and use greenstuff for some of the better conversions.

I don't know all the special weapons in the daemon codex. The Farseers make psychic tests more difficult, so for Chaos, lashing the jetbikes away may not work that well. Plague Marines are usually a tarpit. Could still hold up a Council, you'd get FNP against Witchblades. Meantime, take the Obliterators and deep strike, kill the Jetbike guardians where you can find them.

Stelek had a great picture of a suicidal seer council assault into range of a Blood Angels assault force.

Landraider Redeemer will force lots of rerolls.

Back to your Daemon problem. You need units with power weapons that are half as expensive as the Seer Council, since they will be rerolling their invulnerable saves. Have anything like that? Your Soul Grinders an force rerolled Invuln saves n 3 vehicles a turn. How is the mathhammer of your Juggernaughts or Heralds against Seer Council??

4+ and 4+. The Seer council shrugs off 75% of all wounds, meaning they take 1 in 4.

Basically, do a lot of wounds that ignore their armour save, otherwise they fail 1 in 9.

Also, the seer council doesn't have power weapons and doesn't have that many attacks. In fact unless using witchblades they have only 1 each [and only 2 if using that]. Sure they hit decently and wound a lot but Plaguebearers still get feel no pain and their inv, and if you lose combat you get your invulnerable saves AND feel no pain for the combat loss points too. If you can manage to get stuck in with two very large plaguebearer units, those seer councils will be stuck for a good long while while you mess with the rest of his army.

Plus, while they may all be able to kill something tough quickly [bunch of guys wounding on a 2+ really messes up greater daemons] you can send one in once they're already fighting a bunch of plaguebearers, and then only the one in btb with your monster will be able to strike back.

Plus in hth combat you can single out his farseers. Get a S6 daemon prince on him and then just hope for the lucky failed save that will result in his instant death! Then no more fortune, and the whole squad falls apart.

Might you post a Nid army which could give trouble to Orks at 1750 points for me and my son?

Well, take a shooty Nidzilla list. Its the worst match-up for Orks.

Also, the seer council doesn't have power weapons and doesn't have that many attacks.

A Council on jetbikes normally get the charge. With 3 attacks on the charge, they have quite many attacks; hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2+.
The Council is fast enough to pick units at the leisure, possibly decimating it before via shooting. It will win cc no matter what.

I dunno, I guess we play different opponents. When I use something that's 3+ 3+ it tends to bounce off things unless I have power weapons.

I guess wounding on a 2+ magically makes people fail more armour saves.

And they only get the charge because they haven't been lashed into a bad position

With a lot of uber units like this, no one single unit can take them down. It's like going toe to toe with a Bloodthirster - even a full terminator squad is iffy on whether they can do it or not.

He's put all his points in these uber units, so you do the same - jump them with everything possible, as close to the same time as possible.

armus wrote:RTT Saturday had 28 show with a good mix of armies. The top winner was playing a very annoying though not entirely original eldar army. So anyone have ideas on how to beat this army? I don't have the list but it's the standard 2 Farseers, each with warlock retinue all on jetbikes with fortune running around wacking people with swords and can't be killed. He may have run into one or even two easy opponents but he wiped the board on all three. Two games he wiped his opponent out in 4 turns. One was an IG player and he charged the entire army at once on like turn 2. The rest of his army was guardians on jetbikes, some falcons and a wraithlord i think. I didn't get a shot at him but I'm sure this army is popular. So what beats it?

You might want to get some of your facts straight. A chaos player won overall for the tournament, while the Eldar player won best general. Also, as to what that eldar player ran in his army, you are wrong on most of what you said was in his army.

What he ran was closer to this:

farseer w/fortune, runes or warding, runes of witnessing, eldar jetbike, witch blade and pistol

warlock council
8 warlocks
all on jetbikes, all w/witch blade and pistolone warlock w/embolden, one warlock w/enchance, several w/destructor (not sure how many though but at least several had this power)

avatar

2 squads of dire avengers in wave serpents w/brightlances

3 squads of 3 war walkers all with scatter lasers


Still a tough list but no where near as tough as you originally described with the two units of seer council.


Btw, from what I remember some of the winners might have been paired up with those that lost or tied in the first round, which might explain how that eldar player got such easy opponents, cause I know at least from my experience in that tournament after I won my first game, my second game was against a guy that had lost his first round (if I remember correctly).

spellbound wrote:Also, the seer council doesn't have power weapons and doesn't have that many attacks. In fact unless using witchblades they have only 1 each [and only 2 if using that].

mtgbob wrote:farseer w/fortune, runes or warding, runes of witnessing, eldar jetbike, witch blade and pistol

warlock council
8 warlocks
all on jetbikes, all w/witch blade and pistolone warlock w/embolden, one warlock w/enchance, several w/destructor (not sure how many though but at least several had this power)

An enhanced farseer/warlock gets 4 attacks when assaulting.
Jetbikes swoop in, unload 4 destructors if they are serious (6 if it were me ) and then lays down 36 witchblade strikes. I am certainly hard-pressed to name a unit that will A: survive or B: not run away after combat.
This is certainly a nightmare unit.

DeathGryffin wrote:

spellbound wrote:Also, the seer council doesn't have power weapons and doesn't have that many attacks. In fact unless using witchblades they have only 1 each [and only 2 if using that].

mtgbob wrote:farseer w/fortune, runes or warding, runes of witnessing, eldar jetbike, witch blade and pistol

warlock council
8 warlocks
all on jetbikes, all w/witch blade and pistolone warlock w/embolden, one warlock w/enchance, several w/destructor (not sure how many though but at least several had this power)

An enhanced farseer/warlock gets 4 attacks when assaulting.
Jetbikes swoop in, unload 4 destructors if they are serious (6 if it were me ) and then lays down 36 witchblade strikes. I am certainly hard-pressed to name a unit that will A: survive or B: not run away after combat.
This is certainly a nightmare unit.

Actually, a enhanced farseer/warlock would have 3 attacks on the charge. All enhance does is add +1 ws and +1 ini to their stats.

Jetbike councils are very hard. There are few units that are even remotely effective against them.

Things that help are:

Psychic hoods
Null Zone
Culexus Assassin (+9 shots, soul drain, ld check on a 7 to be charged or shot)
Callidus Assassin (can deepstrike + assault, phase blade allows no saves)
Gift of Chaos (no save instant kill on the farseer 50% of the time)
Warscythes
Shadow in the warp
The horror
psychic scream
that ork that squigifies people

Durandal wrote:Jetbike councils are very hard. There are few units that are even remotely effective against them.

Things that help are:

Psychic hoods
Null Zone
Culexus Assassin (+9 shots, soul drain, ld check on a 7 to be charged or shot)
Callidus Assassin (can deepstrike + assault, phase blade allows no saves)
Gift of Chaos (no save instant kill on the farseer 50% of the time)
Warscythes
Shadow in the warp
The horror
psychic scream
that ork that squigifies people

Well, a Jetlock squad is fast enough to pick their targets. Psychic hoods have limited range. Assassins are not seen very often these days since they require an Inquisitor. Daemon Princes don't get the charge bonus vs Jetlocks; they are either charged or shoot to bits. Necrons are not scary in cc. Skip the rest.

armus wrote:RTT Saturday had 28 show with a good mix of armies. The top winner was playing a very annoying though not entirely original eldar army. So anyone have ideas on how to beat this army? I don't have the list but it's the standard 2 Farseers, each with warlock retinue all on jetbikes with fortune running around wacking people with swords and can't be killed. He may have run into one or even two easy opponents but he wiped the board on all three. Two games he wiped his opponent out in 4 turns. One was an IG player and he charged the entire army at once on like turn 2. The rest of his army was guardians on jetbikes, some falcons and a wraithlord i think. I didn't get a shot at him but I'm sure this army is popular. So what beats it?

I played Demons. List below. I may not have been smart about the missons but I wiped the floor with my opponents. Ran into some trouble with mobility. I'd stack basically everythingI had on one side of the board and find myself short trying to hold objectives on the other side of the board. (all our troops WALK it sucks) If I had split up on the deploy, I'd probably been ok but I didn't know how well I could mow my opponent down.

First game, Tau classic. one stealth suit, 2 crisis units, 2 fire warriors, few tanks. I had problems catching him as he ran away. I deployed half of my army behind him and he was still too fast for me.

Second game, Necron cheese. guy always plays this, 2 lords with orbs, 3 12-man squads of warriors, 2 liths. I deploy, flame and mow. phased him on turn 4.

Third game, new marines, 3 tac squads, 1 scout, 1 dev, landraider, 6 termis, razorback and rhino. he spread out all over the board so I deployed everyone on one side and crushed him. bad news was his troops in the transports got to the objectives to contest when the game ended and I couldn't pop em open.

My list:
Great unclean one, breath of chaos
2 heralds of nurgle with breath
2x 6 plaguebearers (1 has banner)
2x 8 bloodletters
1x 9 pink horrors, changling (worked well)
2x 2 bloodcrushers
3 flamers
3 screamers
1 soulgrinder with phlegm
demonprince of nurgle, wings, nox touch, armor
demonprince of nurgle, nox tough, armor, breath of chaos

I'm tempted to try The Mask out but the lash effect is very nerfed in Demons. I couldn't handle the necron monliths at all (soulgrinder missed and he's all I got) so I'm a little worried on that but the warriors died like chumps. any thoughts?

Much like mtgbob, I too was at this tournament, and used one of his armies (A Ravenwing themed dark angels force. They can also be fielded as fallen, but I liked the ravenwing theme better) as mine is still woefully far from being fully painted.

Bob has it right, the eldar player the OP mentioned didn't win best overall, mtgbob won best overall. The eldar player won best general, and bob there has it right on the list also. It's tough, but not unbeatable if you know what you're doing. I had hoped I might get a chance to play it, but sadly was not paired up with him.

My list was as follows:

HQ:
Master of the Ravenwing in a landspeeder

Fast:
2x Land Speeder tornados

Troops:
2x tactical squads, 1x missle launcher, 1x melta gun, 1x veteran sgt. with a power fist in each unit
2x Razorback transports (one per squad)
1x ravenwing attack squadron: 8 bikes, 2 w/ meltaguns, 1w/ power fist & 1 attack bike w/ multimelta.

Elite:
2x Dreadnoughts w/ DCCW & Plasma cannon

Heavy:
2x Predator destructors w/ sponson lascannons.
1x Whirlwind

I won all three of my games, but didn't get the battlepoints that mtgbob & the eldar player did, and as such didn't place. That said, I had a blast! and look forwards to using my own army next year.

Just a note to clarify.

Take care everyone.

-Red__Thirst-

P.S. I don't know who says the DA codex sucks. I had a blast with it, and was quite pleased with the way it played. That's coming from a long-time Blood Angels player also. Just another random thought I wanted to share.