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...the ones that ignore all the flash and simply go for massed Tactical, Assault, and Devastator Marines?

Yes, sternguard are ridiculous/silly good. but they also cost signfiicantly point-wise, are relatively immobile, and each unit can only engage one unit/turn.

I think massed marines will always be a B+ list... it won't be bad at anything, and it'll do relatively well in any matchup, but it just won't be specialized enough to really hammer anything open on a regular basis.

Well, not to focus just on Sternguard, or even Space Marines for that matter, but rather I'd say that any army needs to focus on it's core to be strong. There are very few lists that let you take 2 minimum troops squads anymore and load up on all the other toys and still be effective.

Space Marines are the core of any Space Marine list. The key is you have to be aware of how much you are spending on your space marines vs their effectiveness. From your example, yes Sternguard are really good but as you said you pay for that ability. However, they are not any more survivable than any other Space Marine. So, you need to be sure to make good use of their abilities and have them in a list that facilitates that. A lot of players get distracted by these sorts of "high value" units and load up on them. In the end it means you are bringing even fewer models to the board, which generally means you are easier to kill. A good rule of thumb is that if you have a core of troops you like to take and you find yourself dropping some of those troops to squeeze in more Sternguard, Assault Marines or Devastators, then you are probably making a mistake.

Centurian99 wrote:...the ones that ignore all the flash and simply go for massed Tactical, Assault, and Devastator Marines?

Yes, sternguard are ridiculous/silly good. but they also cost signfiicantly point-wise, are relatively immobile, and each unit can only engage one unit/turn.

If you think 25 points is expensive, clearly you don't spend enough time in other codex's. There are units that are not as useful that wished they were only 25 points.

The strongest Marine lists are the same as the strongest Xenos lists. You find one or two aspects of the game that you want to concentrate on and spam the hell out of them. You don't take things just because they look cool. You only take things that enhance or work with everything else your taking. Specialize and focus.

Jayden63 wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:...the ones that ignore all the flash and simply go for massed Tactical, Assault, and Devastator Marines?

Yes, sternguard are ridiculous/silly good. but they also cost signfiicantly point-wise, are relatively immobile, and each unit can only engage one unit/turn.

If you think 25 points is expensive, clearly you don't spend enough time in other codex's. There are units that are not as useful that wished they were only 25 points.

The strongest Marine lists are the same as the strongest Xenos lists. You find one or two aspects of the game that you want to concentrate on and spam the hell out of them. You don't take things just because they look cool. You only take things that enhance or work with everything else your taking. Specialize and focus.

Truth!

What about spamming pure Space Marine infantry?

Would a mix of Tacticals, Devastors, Assault Marines, Scouts, Termies and Bikes without any tanks be viable?

Jayden63 wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:...the ones that ignore all the flash and simply go for massed Tactical, Assault, and Devastator Marines?

Yes, sternguard are ridiculous/silly good. but they also cost signfiicantly point-wise, are relatively immobile, and each unit can only engage one unit/turn.

If you think 25 points is expensive, clearly you don't spend enough time in other codex's. There are units that are not as useful that wished they were only 25 points.

The strongest Marine lists are the same as the strongest Xenos lists. You find one or two aspects of the game that you want to concentrate on and spam the hell out of them. You don't take things just because they look cool. You only take things that enhance or work with everything else your taking. Specialize and focus.

At 25 points they're good. But you need a good number of combi-meltas, so lets assume that you're going all out for another +5 per model. Then just in case, you probably want a power fist. This, of course, doesn't figure in the cost of the transport - probably a drop pod, although a rhino is a possibility.

You also have to think of it in terms of "if not XXX, what am I going to use to perform the same job that XXX would have done?".

In this case, Sternguard tend to be your main anti-vehicle. Then once that anti-vehicle is exhausted, they become your main anti-infantry. With a drop pod and a good smattering of combi meltas (you're not taking a power fist, that'd be stupid, it reduces one of your sternguard boltguns by one; attach a special character and let him take a powerfist if you're really jonesing for one) Sternguard come in at about 300 points.

So if you don't have 300 points worth of Sternguard, what are you taking for anti-vehicle? This is where it gets kind of difficult. Lascannons just don't cut it. Missile launchers and multi meltas cut even less than the lascannons. Meltabombs face the glaring difficulty of being available in sufficient quantity only to really expensive units (not to mention tehe 0" range), which defeats the whole purpose of not taking Sternguard.

I think the only really "flashy" units in the marine codex are the vanguard, thunderfire, and probably Command/Honor Guard squads.

I really think people are using Sternguard wrong if they are your anti tank. There are so many other option for taking down tanks, that you don't have to flood Sternguard with combi-meltas.

Landspeeder Typhoons
Landspeeder Tornados
devistator squads
tac squads with melta-guns
Landraiders
Ass cannon / las/plas razorbacks
Predators

Its not like marine armies had problems dropping tanks before the sternguard showed up. The point is to focus and understand that some units have very specific jobs.

Tanks are more survivable in 5th ed. Get used to it. Suddenly taking 30 point single shot melta-guns is not going to suddenly make that no so.

Its my opinion that sternguard are strictly anti-infantry. It is there that they excel, and they don't need any upgrades what so ever to do their job. Their job is to kill the other infantry first that has the weapons that will take down your tanks.

sourclams wrote: you're not taking a power fist, that'd be stupid, it reduces one of your sternguard boltguns by one

No, it doesn't. Your Sgt replaces his Bolt Pistol with the power fist.

Jayden63 wrote:I really think people are using Sternguard wrong if they are your anti tank. There are so many other option for taking down tanks, that you don't have to flood Sternguard with combi-meltas.

Landspeeder Typhoons
Landspeeder Tornados
devistator squads
tac squads with melta-guns
Landraiders
Ass cannon / las/plas razorbacks
Predators

Its not like marine armies had problems dropping tanks before the sternguard showed up. The point is to focus and understand that some units have very specific jobs.

Tanks are more survivable in 5th ed. Get used to it. Suddenly taking 30 point single shot melta-guns is not going to suddenly make that no so.

Its my opinion that sternguard are strictly anti-infantry. It is there that they excel, and they don't need any upgrades what so ever to do their job. Their job is to kill the other infantry first that has the weapons that will take down your tanks.

Actually, marine armies had a hell of a time dropping tanks without doubling up on meltaguns.

Those choices all do not kill tanks. Only LR and Speeders with multimeltas do so effectively.

Suddenly taking 8 combi-meltas is actually going to blow every tank up.

You thinking that many meltas is a fail, well, that's a fail.

Believing you can dump 1/3 to 1/2 of your points into anti-infantry and let your tactical idiots take down tanks is just silly.

When you face a mech force and your sternguard are aiming for back shots on tanks (or even more amusing, trying to CC tanks), you'll feel pretty silly about not buying the combi-meltas.

Really, honest. Sternguard are awesome because they can do everything, not just be one-dimensional.

The other thing to ask yourself is how much did you actually pay for the anti-tank. 10 combi-meltas is only 50 points. Even if you have to dump all 10 into the landraider to kill it, you made back 500% return on your anti-tank investment. Then you move on to the anti-infantry roll that Sternguard is designed to take out. This is a more alpha strike mentality, but that method also works.

Also there are other tanks that are not Land raiders and Monoliths that show up. AV 10-13 is pretty prevalent. In which case those other things that I listed will work just fine.

Well, Sternguard should be taken with combi-meltas. They need a delivering mechanism and the best seems to be a Drop Pod. This brings them close to the target. They'll ge the job done and destroy a tank. Now the survivors crawl out and need to be taken on. For Termies one needs another Sternguard unit with combi-meltas; for MEQ the Sterguards' bolters will do the job.

So if you decide to take drop pods, then all units should be mounted into drop pods.

Sure, and a all-mech army with say 6 rhinos gets shot down by sternguard combat squad'ing. So what do I need to bring 10 tacticals with a lascannon for? Or a dev squad?

You do know that marines bounce off Tau horribly, and only meltas kill their tanks reliably--if you don't, you should.

I laugh at gunlines against my Tau. Go ahead, shoot the tanks...

Anyway, it takes a hell of a lot of firepower that isn't AP1 to reliably kill even a rhino.

I know. My 10 crisis suits have enjoyed killing Rhinos when I missed with the hammerheads.

Usually they failed until I fired everything at them. Not exactly efficient, and that's exactly how marine armies work when firing at mech. It goes worse when they have to face a 4+ cover save from say a fast moving Eldar force about to land assault troops or DA all over them. No meltas? Odds are you're about to get crushed.

I would agree that some of the best lists take 1-2 great units and replicate them. For marines it is Dakka Pred's for 85pts. Attack bikes for 40pts and dreadnoughts for 105pts. These three units can combine to eliminate anything from a land raider to a horde of Orks.

3 Attack Bikes are 120pts. That gives you 3 heavy bolters that move 12" and fire with full effect. 3 Land Speeders with double heavy bolters are 180pts and they rip out 18 heavy bolter shots a turn. That's an incredible amount of firepower.

3 Attack bikes with multi-melta's are 150pts and can turbo boost to destroy tanks with ease. Eliminating the easy heavy weapon from the troop catagory has made the heavy weapons in the fast attack catagory a premium. It's what really seperates the marines from chaos and it is what can keep the marines at the top of a shooting war vs. anybody.

Dreads are a great buy now. 105pts with a multi-melta makes these guys excellent tank killers in a drop pod. Ironclads are better by a factor greater than their points difference with a normal dread. Imagine a base list like this.

EL x3 Ironclads in drop pods
FA x2 3 attack bikes
FA x1 3 attack bikes with multimelta
HV x3 Predator Destructors

That's about 1155pts of shooting hell. 4 strong sources of melta weapons, 12 heavy bolters and 2 autocannons. You haven't even picked troops yet and you have more heavy weapons on the table than most full armies.

Very true, DarthDiggler.

I've told people repeatedly that the marines are something to be feared.

They really truly are.

Oh and I'd probably take LS Typhoons over the attack bikes myself. Those things are ungodly.

LS Typhoons are amazing, but the cost differential over the attack bikes is more than 2:1.

Except that Typhoons work against any enemy list. The Typhoon is a true multi-tasker. The 180 model ork horde will just smile when they see Multi-melta attack bikes on the other side of the field.

True, the typhoon is a multi-tasker, but it's missiles are not as good as multi-meltas at killing tanks.

And if we are going to say the 180 model ork horde will laugh at multi-meltas, the 3 Land Raider space marine army will laugh at the typhoons.

My point is the multi-melta is the better anti-tank. Also, the Typhoon costs TWICE as much. I think that is what DarthDiggler's list is representing. Specialized units for specific roles working together to be effective in a combined arms style play FOR CHEAP.

Your sure melta bikes are the better anti-tank?.

Landspeeder Typhoon at 48" - 36"
(chance for pen destroyed)
AV10 - 2*2/3*2/3*1/3 = .28
AV11 - 2*2/3*1/2*1/3 = .21
AV12 - 2*2/3*1/3*1/3 = .14
Av13 - 2*2/3*1/6*1/3 = .06

36" and closer
The only thing that changes is AV10 because now we can get in the heavy bolter shots
AV10 - 2*2/3*2/3*1/3=.28 + 3*2/3*1/6*1/3=.117 = .39

Obviously the attack bike with Multi-melta is no good at ranges over 24"

Attack bike at 13-24"
(chance for pen destroyed) + (chance for glance destroyed)

AV10 - (1*2/3*2/3*1/2)+(.01) = .22
AV11 - (1*2/3*1/2*1/2)+(.01) = .17
AV12 - (1*2/3*1/3*1/2)+(.01) = .11
AV13 - (1*2/3*1/6*1/2)+(.01) = .03
AV14 - (1*2/3*1/6*1/6) = .01

Attack bike at 12" or less
I'm not going to run the numbers because 2D6 is complicated and its obvious that it will be better odds.

But it looks like to me that outside of 12" the Typhoon is the superior tankbuster. So the real question is how close do you want to get to the enemy? If your within 2D6 melta range to nuke a vehicle your probably well within retaliation fire or even charge range. The Landspeeder has the advantage of range and the fact even at range 0 it can't be destroyed by S4 or less weapons. Is that worth twice the points, I guess that would depend on what your play style is.

I think that if you're taking speeders then you need a more dedicated AT unit specializing in AV 14.

Personally, I agree that the Typhoon is the better unit, and much more so against AV12 and lower, but it can do no more than harry a line of AV14 tanks.

I will attest to the sheer difficulty of taking anything down with LAS cannons though. They have lost a lot of value, especially due to the fact that the missile launcher is free.

Wouldn't you bring 3 or 4 tactical squads in combat squad formation to bring 8 more melta sources in the army?

Or two masters of the forge for very amusing railcannon shots?

Jayden63 wrote:Your sure melta bikes are the better anti-tank?.

Landspeeder Typhoon at 48" - 36"
(chance for pen destroyed)
AV10 - 2*2/3*2/3*1/3 = .28
AV11 - 2*2/3*1/2*1/3 = .21
AV12 - 2*2/3*1/3*1/3 = .14
Av13 - 2*2/3*1/6*1/3 = .06

36" and closer
The only thing that changes is AV10 because now we can get in the heavy bolter shots
AV10 - 2*2/3*2/3*1/3=.28 + 3*2/3*1/6*1/3=.117 = .39

Obviously the attack bike with Multi-melta is no good at ranges over 24"

Attack bike at 13-24"
(chance for pen destroyed) + (chance for glance destroyed)

AV10 - (1*2/3*2/3*1/2)+(.01) = .22
AV11 - (1*2/3*1/2*1/2)+(.01) = .17
AV12 - (1*2/3*1/3*1/2)+(.01) = .11
AV13 - (1*2/3*1/6*1/2)+(.01) = .03
AV14 - (1*2/3*1/6*1/6) = .01

Attack bike at 12" or less
I'm not going to run the numbers because 2D6 is complicated and its obvious that it will be better odds.

But it looks like to me that outside of 12" the Typhoon is the superior tankbuster. So the real question is how close do you want to get to the enemy? If your within 2D6 melta range to nuke a vehicle your probably well within retaliation fire or even charge range. The Landspeeder has the advantage of range and the fact even at range 0 it can't be destroyed by S4 or less weapons. Is that worth twice the points, I guess that would depend on what your play style is.

Jayden, what are you trying to do here, play politics? You didn't even run the numbers for the typhoon against AV14 (because it's .00) and did not run the numbers for the multi-meltas @ 12". Talk about a one-sided, biased presentation to prove your point. You stated it's OBVIOUS that 2d6 will be better odds at penetrating armor, so why are you asking me if I'm sure the melta bikes are the better anti-tank? Obviously, the attack bike with mutli-melta, or any multi-melta for that matter, needs to be within 12" to utilize it's maximum effect. The attack bike is the cheapest and most effective delivery system for this specialised tactic, to get the gun in close against AV13/14 vehicles to DESTROY them. Additionally, the AP1 means that even glancing can destroy a tank, something the typhoon cannot do.

I'm not argueing against the LS Typhoon as a good source of anti-tank. I use them when I run my razorback spam army, I know how good they are. But they fail against AV 13/14 where the attack bike with mutli-melta does not. Please don't bother argueing about range, because the typhoon MUST stay away to be effective due to it's pathetic armor and the attack bike MUST be close to be effective, but it can with W2, T5 and turbo 3+ inv.

I will repeat my point and the point I think darthdiggler was trying to make that I agree with. You can use specialised units that have distinct roles in a combined arms force. The multi-melta attack bikes role is to destroy AV13/14 armor. I agree with you that the typhoon is a better multi-tasker, but fails in the specialised role of killing AV13/14 compared to the attack bike with multi-melta. Also, the cheaper anti-tank are the attack bikes.

@Centurian
Back on topic, I think that going with the basic troops and sticking with the tac/dev/assault models makes a strong list, but not the strongest IMO.

@2000 points you can get the basic battle company which is solid.

Chapter Master w/ jump pack, relic blade

Assault 2x10

Dev 2x10 (choice of heavy bolter x4, missile launcher x4, multi-melta x4)

Tac 6x10 w/ flamer (choice of heavy bolter, missile launcher, multi-melta)

101 marines is a tough nut and viable in any mission.

@2000 points you can get the basic battle company which is solid.

Chapter Master w/ jump pack, relic blade

Assault 2x10

Dev 2x10 (choice of heavy bolter x4, missile launcher x4, multi-melta x4)

Tac 6x10 w/ flamer (choice of heavy bolter, missile launcher, multi-melta)

101 marines is a tough nut and viable in any mission.

In fact, a full company is viable due to the missions played in the 5th ed.
However, its a jack of all trades but a master of none.

The Typhoon has the superior range and the ability to stay out of harms way while it shoots, however this is 5th edition now. Long range becomes short range very quickly in 5th compared to 4th edition.

The numbers run above are nice. Did you take into account the attack bike multi-meltas add +1 to their damage tables because they are ap1? Did you also do the math for 2 attack bike multi-meltas compared to 1 typhoon because the points breakdown is almost 2 for 1? Of course the single Typhoon shoots twice while 2 attack bikes shoot twice combined so this might be a wash.

I see the Typhoons versatility versus Orks and maybe Genestealer Nidzilla. However vs. toughness 3 troop spam the twin-linked bolters on the attack bike come into play. Versus non HtH troop spam (Tau, Guardians, Imperial Guard) the attack bikes can assault into those troops to deliver a killing blow the speeders can not.

It is true the attack bikes will need to get within 12 inches to be most effective especially against armor 14. Turbo boosting gives them a 3+ invulnerable which the best defense against incoming shots when you do try to get within range. The attack bikes can be destroyed by the cargo inside the Land Raider when it pops, however you have now sacrificed a 150pt unit for a 250pt unit and the assault element which comes out of the Land raider to clean up the attack bikes is now walking around the board. This decreases their treat radius tremendously. A multi-melta speeder can get within range, however if it sits a turn because of moving to fast it's weak armor will probably not let it survive to finish the kill.

I like the Typhoon alot. It's real good all by itself. However the attack bikes just seem a better buy in the same slot.

I think the main benefit of Meltas of any kind is predictability. I think that's something Stelek likes in his lists (and we all should, really).

Yes, Meltas lack range. Yes, nothing is totally 100% predictable. But with a Typhoon, you've got a "decent" chance from all over. Put it 32" away? Decent chance. 12" away? Decent chance. Flexible, but not predictable.

With a Multi-Melta, you get within 12", and something is probably going to die. Get a couple Meltas within 6", even better.

One major key to victory is taking the dice oot of it. Find a sequence of steps you'd be willing to do, any time, to kill a Land Raider, and then do it. Drop a Pod next to a Land Raider, spend 20 points on Combi-Meltas, it dies 90% of the time? Ok, so you can't shoot across the table. You'll take that deal, tho.

Phryxis wrote:I think the main benefit of Meltas of any kind is predictability. I think that's something Stelek likes in his lists (and we all should, really).

Yes, Meltas lack range. Yes, nothing is totally 100% predictable. But with a Typhoon, you've got a "decent" chance from all over. Put it 32" away? Decent chance. 12" away? Decent chance. Flexible, but not predictable.

With a Multi-Melta, you get within 12", and something is probably going to die. Get a couple Meltas within 6", even better.

One major key to victory is taking the dice oot of it. Find a sequence of steps you'd be willing to do, any time, to kill a Land Raider, and then do it. Drop a Pod next to a Land Raider, spend 20 points on Combi-Meltas, it dies 90% of the time? Ok, so you can't shoot across the table. You'll take that deal, tho.

Smart man. (Or woman!)

One major key to victory is taking the dice oot of it. Find a sequence of steps you'd be willing to do, any time, to kill a Land Raider, and then do it. Drop a Pod next to a Land Raider, spend 20 points on Combi-Meltas, it dies 90% of the time? Ok, so you can't shoot across the table. You'll take that deal, tho.

I can see this happening. Now you have already one unit in your army and the rest looks pretty predictable, right?

Here's the thing people miss: Lascannons aren't very good weapons

Seriously - with the new Vehicle Damage rules they simply aren't that good. You can't count on scattered Lascannon fire to bring down anything. Meanwhile, Space Marine Devastators pay a ridiculous premium for them, so massed Lascannon fire is a waste of points.

You're way better off just dropping an angry Ironclad or even a regular Space Marine Deadnought w/ Multi-melta right into the thick of the action and going after vehicles.

Sternguard w/ the Combi-Melta are remarkably good at anti-tank work and stellar and mopping up infantry once the tanks are gone (as opposed to Lascannons vs. Ork Hordes). I think the optimal configuration is probably 10 Sternguard + 6 Combi-Meltas + Drop Pod, ringing up at around, what, 315 points? A proper drop can have you taking down 2 vehicles on entry, thanks to Combat Squads. Compare that to a full Devastator Squad w/ Lascannons - 330 points! Who at GW in their right mind thought that was competitive?

Basically, out of the New Space Marines your Anti-Armor punch should be coming from Melta Weapons out of either your Fast Attack or Elites slots. Heavy Support is for Anti-Infantry of various shapes and sizes (from S10 AP2 pie to dakka-Predators) or Land Raiders.

The only real problem I see with drop-sternguard are that if you take them alone they may be forced to drop onto an empty enemy back-field due to Reserves. If that happens they may not be maneuverable enough to threaten all the Vehicles they should. In those scenarios a Multi-Melta Dreadnaught is probably more menacing with a 30" AP1 shot range and a 18" 2d6 range.