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Dread entry; p65 C:SM

Special rules: Venerable: If a dreadnought suffers a glancing/pen hit, you can ASK your opponent to re-roll the result on the damage chart.

Obviously common sense says they cannot refuse, Rules as Written suggest you can.

Obviously I'm not going to use this, however I wonder what RAW camp thinks.

Scernario: Player A: Yes a 6, dread go boom!

Player B: It says I can ask you to re-roll

Player A: I refuse your request.

Tell me why Im wrong.

You aren't... but it's a good way to get labelled "That F&%#ing Guy".

Actually check the 5th definition of the word 'ask' for GW's usage of the word.

In the rulebook the word ask is written two times in the rules section (page 1-95)

Rulebook page 58 wrote:The Emperor asks only that you obey.

and

Rulebook page 88 wrote:It is best if the players place the terrain together,
ensuring that the set-up is acceptable to them both.
Alternatively, you may ask a third person to set up the
terrain in a fair manner. A third common way of setting
up the terrain is for the player hosting the game (or
arriving first at the club) to set the terrain up, and for
the other player to automatically win the roll to choose
who deploys first (see missions). In tournament play,
terrain will normally be pre-set by the organisers.

I don't think you can interpret a definition from that so I'd stick to the common meaning of the word. So by RAW the opponent do not have to re-roll. Go RAW!!!

Sorry, but just because they don't use that particular definition in the rulebook is inconsequential. That is indeed the definition being used because it's the one that makes the most sense in the context being used. That is the RAW, not having your opponent decide he does not want to re-roll. The RAW does not indicate that he gets a choice, just that you 'ask'.

And by the way, your first example DOES use the 5th definition of the word 'ask'.

It only says ask because the writers are british

So, the question is, can you ask your opponent to only reroll 1 or 2 of the results, or does he have to reroll all of them. Say he gets three pens against you, but one of those is only a shaken result while the other two are destroyed. Can you only ask them to reroll the destroyed results and leave the shaken?

Yes.

lord_sutekh wrote:You aren't... but it's a good way to get labelled "That F&%#ing Guy".

Too late!

He IS That F'in Guy!

Rated G wrote:So, the question is, can you ask your opponent to only reroll 1 or 2 of the results, or does he have to reroll all of them. Say he gets three pens against you, but one of those is only a shaken result while the other two are destroyed. Can you only ask them to reroll the destroyed results and leave the shaken?

I believe in instances where your required to reroll all rolls, it specifically states that. So I'd read it this way that you can pick and choose which rolls to reroll.

As for the original question, I'd definitely say this should fall under RAI instead of RAW, and will probably be fixed by an FAQ.

if i asked someone to re-roll and they said no i would stop the game, go out for a smoke, and carry on once they decided to roll again.
the rules are too polite.
i think it should be: "tell the other player to re-roll the dice"

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:It only says ask because the writers are british

I say old boy, you appear to be stereotyping our nation old chap
If you don't stop this tarade I'll have no choice, but to kindly ask you again by golly.
Tally ho and toodle pipski!
(mutters to his friend) "thats right, I gave the old boy a damn good thrashing"

I agree with JD21290, if someone did that across me I'd stop the game until they reconsider their position, maybe have some ciders whilst I wait. hhmmmm refreshing

I agree with JD21290, if someone did that across me I'd stop the game until they reconsider their position, maybe have some ciders whilst I wait. hhmmmm refreshing

the going out for a smoke part is to keep cool, dont want to get banned from my LGS for hitting another gamer

JD21290 wrote:

I agree with JD21290, if someone did that across me I'd stop the game until they reconsider their position, maybe have some ciders whilst I wait. hhmmmm refreshing

the going out for a smoke part is to keep cool, dont want to get banned from my LGS for hitting another gamer

Hell, I watched a kid hit a store employee with a chair, and he wasn't banned. Me punching another gamer in the face isn't going to get me banned.

Hell, I watched a kid hit a store employee with a chair, and he wasn't banned. Me punching another gamer in the face isn't going to get me banned.

i got told to watch my language when i said bugger , and this is in a LGS with 20 other people, all aged 18+ (age limit for it) we are all smoking and drinking (some are skinning up)
i dont want to thik what will happen if ihit someone XD

might aswell test on the next person who refuses to re-roll the dice lol

First off, just because you DEMAND it doesn't mean anything

P1: The rules say I can ask you to reroll that die. Please, reroll it.
P2: No.
P1: No. You don't understand. I DEMAND that you reroll that die.
P2: Oh. In THAT case, then... No.

Demanding it doesn't mean it will happen. Ask the parent of any child who's having an unsuccessful tantrum.

That being said, however, I agree on what the rule means and if my opponnent refuses to reroll the die because the rules don't say he has to capitulate to my request will be the recipient of something similar to the following:

"Hey. Congratulations. You win."
::as I begin removing my models from the table::
"Wanna play again... Without cheating this time?"


Eric

And once again, please show where the opponent is allowed to refuse. That's where your argument falls apart. You ask ("to demand; expect" or "to call for; need; require") your opponent to re-roll the dice and he has no option not to. You nor the rules have given him an option to do otherwise. You are still trying to use a different defintion of the word. It's no different than when the rules tell you to do something. You do not get an option not to do it.

it only says "you may ask" because if you dont want it to be re-rolled then you dont ask, its an option, you can ask him, or not.

first off, this will never, ever be FAQ'd. because the second GW admits players like the douchebags who would even ponder this, all their heads will explode. or they'll shut the company down. God knows I'm in utter denial of the existance of TFG, especially when I encounter him.



PS you can pick and choose which ones to reroll.

The Space Wolf codex says "may force" instead of "may ask". I wonder what made them change the wording when writing the 4ed SM codex.

Nothing. It was probably just a different author.

This falls under my "Pack my gak and leave, to never play that donkey-cave again" column.

I mean really, who wouldn't expect a good smacking with the BGB if they tried to say "no' when "asked" to do this?

Ghaz wrote:And once again, please show where the opponent is allowed to refuse. That's where your argument falls apart. You ask ("to demand; expect" or "to call for; need; require") your opponent to re-roll the dice and he has no option not to. You nor the rules have given him an option to do otherwise. You are still trying to use a different defintion of the word. It's no different than when the rules tell you to do something. You do not get an option not to do it.

First, please keep in mind that I agree with you on it's meaning and am STRICTLY playing "Devil's Advocate," here.

As we know, GW's rules are permissive. You don't get to do it unless they give you permission to.
The codex rules give you the right to "ask" (request, demand, etc). It says nothing about the requirement for your opponent to comply. Nowhere in the rulebooks does it state that requests by your opponents MUST be obeyed. I'm not told I have to comply (or "given permission to comply") with his request/demand, so I don't have to (using strict dictionary definitions). I can ASK my opponent to play with only half his army. It doesn't mean it's going to happen.

I'm not using a different definition than you. I'm using "Demand." The 5th definition in the link below. The one you cited. Demands are just that. Demands. There is no requirement, real or implied, in the dictionary definition in the word, of the person who is having demands made of himself to comply. To reiterate my own point earlier: If a 5 year old child ASKS his mother a toy, then DEMANDS it when she refuses, there is no requirement that she comply. It is the same, unfortunate, thing here. Some "TFG" could point that out.

I would also like to reiterate my response to said TFG:

"Hey. Congratulations. You win."
::as I begin removing my models from the table::
"Wanna play again... Without cheating this time?"

I don't play by RAW. I play by RAI. If that causes some confusions in the games I play, so be it. I game with adults and we can come to reasonable answers to any disagreements, or dice-off in those cases where we can't. I don't have the time, energy or desire to scour the wording in the books to see how I can twist it to my desires or argue against someone else who tries to.

Eric

This is the silliest YMDC evar!

No one is going to refuse, and if they do, you pack up your stuff and leave.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

may i suggest punching the guy in the face and asking if he would like the damage result rerolled