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Fabius Bile can enhance guys to give them +1 strength. I'm wondering if this is added to base strength or added on after. If its base then a powerfist would double their str to 10, if its not then a powerfist would be str9 (4x2+1) like it is with furious charge. I don't see anything specifically stating either way, but i might just be blind.

Another good question:

i say that you and your opponent need to decide before playing.

If i was aske by the CSM player, i would say that it is added before doubling of the powerfist, 2 reasons: 1.you are already risking loosing the troops by using fabius bile and deserver to be rewarded for the risk and 2. they are drugged up before going to battle, there for they should have the +1 before the effects of any wargear

by thats just IMHO

i'm with squig on this one, the bonus was applied before the game had started, so i would add that into the models base stats making him S5 (S10 with a PF)
where as things like furious charge only increace stats at the time they are used, enhanced warrior is perminent.

This one has been answered by GW before. Unless specified otherwise you follow basic mathematical rules and multiply or divide before you add or subtract.

ghaz, its an upgrade, like unholy might on a daemon, its added to the models base stats

basic mathematics? this is about order of operations. so is it:

2(4+1)

or

4x2+1

dumbuket: S:(4+1) x 2 = S:10

A CSM has a basic Strength of 4 +1 for the bile upgrade and then times 2 for a power fist

you add S bonuses after the doubling so S9

Bonuses are added after multiplication. If it doesn't change their actual profile (i.e., make them Str 5), then it doesn't get multiplied.

are you able to quote that? and in context to the question of bile?

Burden of proof is on you. Can you prove otherwise? Unless there are clear exceptions written into his rule, then it works just like every other stat increase effect.

JD21290 wrote:ghaz, its an upgrade, like unholy might on a daemon, its added to the models base stats

And like I said, it has been clarified before. You multiply before you add.

Bonuses are added after multiplication. If it doesn't change their actual profile (i.e., make them Str 5), then it doesn't get multiplied.

it does make them S5, thats the whole point of the enhanced warrior.


Ghaz, quote that from a reliable source please.

Pg 7 main rulebook

darkness, any idea what page in the black reach rule book? im round a friends and he hasnt got the rule book, just the black reach one.

dont have black reach but were its talks about characteristics at the front, on the second page of them in a little box.

never mind
got it.

If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that both add to and multiply one of his characteristics, first multiply the basic value then add the extra points.

and its neither a rule nor is it wargear, it is an upgrade, like unholy might for a daemon.

Its a rule . Your paying 3 points to be enhanced to roll on the chart and gain new rules.

All your doing is splitting hairs to try and get a S10 fist.

your looking a the box titles multiple modifiers right?

it says if it has both +1 Str and double.

the enhanced warrior is applied to the models profile, where as something like furious chage is +1 Str.
enhanced warrior is activated before the battle, making it part of a models profile.
things like furious charge (+1 Str and I) only come into play when certain conditions are met (once you have charged) making them a +1.

now, can you please give me an example of a model that can gain +1 Str thats added to its base profile.
the reason for this will become apparent shortly.

All your doing is splitting hairs to try and get a S10 fist.

like i care about a PF? i play daemons, no such thing in a daemon army
now, any other cheap shots?

The Bile upgrade makes the BASIC strength of a CSM 5, the profile is changed to S:5 not S:4(5), therefor you double the 5.

srry if you saw that as a cheap shot, wasnt meant to be.

Fact is anything that deals with a model and how it works is a rule.

As for +1 S on the base profile, only Nids can claim that.

Your S bonus is not before the battle. You do not roll on the table until after deployment, so until that point you are S4.

I will say it is in a hazy area. It actually doesn't just say they are str 5 it just says they are +1 Str for the remainder of the game. +2 if you roll a 6 though.

srry if you saw that as a cheap shot, wasnt meant to be.

its fine, but i now want a herald of khorne with a PF

As for +1 S on the base profile, only Nids can claim that.

and what about the unholy might upgrade on a greater daemon, herald or prince?

Your S bonus is not before the battle. You do not roll on the table until after deployment, so until that point you are S4.

it has no trigger though like all others.
all items / other things that give a stat increace have a common trigger (usually once in combat)
a standard CSM is only S9 when using the PF, not when he is moving about.

the enhanced warrior applies through the whole game (or untill the model is dead) where as all other are triggered into use (once again, like FC)

this is going to be a bad example but its all I can do. Last chaos codex, demonic strength plus Pfist.

Your right, nothing else in the game allows for +1S and doubling at the same time anymore for the whole game, but the enhanced warriors. However I dont see how that makes it different in the application of that rule. Its still a rule that does both doubling and +1S.

Only exception is Tyranid weapons, as the codex states otherwise

but its not doubling and +1, its just doubling.
the +1 has been added to the models profile.

do you own a copy of the daemons codex?
by giving the model a mount or chariot it increaces thier profile.
Enhanced warrior is the same as this, its a bonus that is fixed into the profile rather than being a +1 like everything else.

unholy might or a chariot is wargear. so they would follow the doubling +1 restriction.

The enhanced warrior argument is better as its not wargear, but it is a rule. And the rule in the main rulebook is clear that any rule that adds +1 does so after the doubling. The enhanced warrior +1 S is a rule, as well as unholy might or a chariot.

unholy might or a chariot is wargear. so they would follow the doubling +1 restriction.

not at all.
look at the herald and chariot entries.
gives the herald a new increaced profile

darkness, everything is or has a rule.
please quote the entry from bile's rules

yes, everything has a rule, and thus the doubling +1 thing encompasses everything.

Neither of us will change each others minds, and thus far we have dominated this thread. At this point lets get some fresh views on the matter.

but its not a +1
its a S5 enhanced warrior

agreed, and i need some sleep, 1st nights sleep in 3 days now since new painkillers for my teeth keep me up.

1 more note, have you checked the charior entries in the daemons list? its an upgrade, and adds to a models base stats (hence the examples shown)