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A normal singing spear, when thrown, has ap6. But it states specifically in Yriel's entry "It is a singing spear that ignores armor saves"

Does this count for both close combat and the shooting phase? Makes sense that something which ignores armor saves in CC would have a low AP in the shooting phase.

It actually doesn't make sense, a point of reference is the Ork Scorcha. It ignores Armor in CC but has an ap of 5 in its shooting profile.


The singing spear has an AP of 6 when shot. I would only apply the Ignores armor saves to CC.

As it doesn't specify it does ignore armour saves both when shooting and in close combat.

BTW, skorchas can't be used in close combat and are AP 4. Burnas has two modes, one as flamethrower represented by the shooting attack and one as blowtorch represented by being a power weapon in CC.

So it would appear some people have different interpretations. As it does not provide a diffrent weapon profile for shooting, reflecting a lower AP, i tend to think that it is still ap6. But it would be nice to have some clarification.

The Spear of Twilight ignores armour saves; there is no support in the rules for the contention that it ignores armour saves only in one aspect of its use. Note the relevant rule;

Eldar Codex page 53 wrote:The Spear of Twilight:... It is a singing spear that ignores armour saves (see page 27).

Flavor text omitted.

Buzzsaw wrote:The Spear of Twilight ignores armour saves; there is no support in the rules for the contention that it ignores armour saves only in one aspect of its use. Note the relevant rule;

Eldar Codex page 53 wrote:The Spear of Twilight:... It is a singing spear that ignores armour saves (see page 27).

Flavor text omitted.

Also note that the normal reference to ignoring armor saves is in reference to a CC weapon of some type, not a shooting weapon. That is where the support for the interpretation comes from, GW's own normal usage of the phrase.

InquisitorFabius wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:The Spear of Twilight ignores armour saves; there is no support in the rules for the contention that it ignores armour saves only in one aspect of its use. Note the relevant rule;

Eldar Codex page 53 wrote:The Spear of Twilight:... It is a singing spear that ignores armour saves (see page 27).

Flavor text omitted.

Also note that the normal reference to ignoring armor saves is in reference to a CC weapon of some type, not a shooting weapon. That is where the support for the interpretation comes from, GW's own normal usage of the phrase.

I'm sorry, your support for a dramatically divergent reading of the rule (from "ignores armor saves" to "ignores armor saves in X, but not in Y") is... the inference that GW's "normal usage" should be interpreted to indicate a limitation on the characteristic of ignoring armor saves? Really?

By RAW, the Spear of Twilight "ignores armour saves"; if you have a rules quotation that explicitly limits this weapon quality to HtH, feel free to present it. In the absence of that, any model suffering a wound from the Spear may not, by the rules, benefit from an armor save.

It seriously sounds like GW needs to release an FAQ.

G

One might argue the weapon doesn't give armour saves in shooting, but the "ignores" is usually only used for CC weapons. Shooting weapons have a profile with an AP value that might be so low that there is no save.

Spetulhu wrote:One might argue the weapon doesn't give armour saves in shooting, but the "ignores" is usually only used for CC weapons. Shooting weapons have a profile with an AP value that might be so low that there is no save.

Exactly, the term "ignores armor saves" is reserved for combat resolution in a close combat. I've never once read "Lascannons ignore armor saves". But, I was curious how other players have used Yriel, I mean, he's been out for a while now. But I myself just recently got back into the hobby and got the model and intend to use him soon.

Rulebook page 20 wrote:The AP rating indicates the armour save the weapon
can ignore – so lower means more powerful. A weapon
shown as ‘AP –’ has no Armour Piercing value and will
never disallow the target’s armour save.

AP is just a way of describing what saves a shooting weapon can ignore so ignoring armour saves is something shooting weapons do all the time. The spear just ignore them all together. That's RAW and RAI.

Okay, so find one other shooting attack that is described as "Ignores armor saves"

Actually, let's try another thought then. Singing Spears are melee weapons with the additional power of a ranged attack. Unless there's a separate profile for Yriel's SS ranged attack I'd imagine it uses the normal one.

coredump wrote:Okay, so find one other shooting attack that is described as "Ignores armor saves"

Why
One is enough!
GW are not consistent (hmm, maybe I should add that to my signature).

Spetulhu wrote:Actually, let's try another thought then. Singing Spears are melee weapons with the additional power of a ranged attack. Unless there's a separate profile for Yriel's SS ranged attack I'd imagine it uses the normal one.

I find nothing in the description that support that. You can as easily claim it's a shooting weapon that can also be used as a 2-handed witch blade in close combat.

It states that it is a singing spear that ignores saves. Thusly, I would think it ignores AS in all aspects of the spear... Thats my two cents...

I believe the point of the AP6 is so that you do not get the -1 on the damage table vs vehicles (or so that you don't get only glancing hits in 4th). I'm guessing its there just to make sure it retains its effectiveness vs vehicles.

I would guess that it ignores armor saves in all instances.

I agree with Axyl. It says it ignores saves.

coredump wrote:Okay, so find one other shooting attack that is described as "Ignores armor saves"

My two cents. Breath of Chaos. Pg 73 of the Daemon codex. A shooting attack that allows no armour saves. (or cover)

the idea that it ignores armour saves only in CC is pure conjecture.

can you tell me where it explicitly states that a reference to "ignores armour saves" only applies in CC? no

if you cant do that you cannot infer that it only works in CC

@ coredump-
Wind of chaos=shooting attack that ignores armor+cover saves.