Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So my waffling on my next main army project continues.


With the current climate of 5th ed, what do you think is better for a Winged Hive Tyrant, two pairs of Scything Talons, or a two pairs of Twin-linked Devourers?

Going to mostly be a Warrior centric list with the tyrant and a Carnifex or two.

I say Claws. With 12" Flight they are only going to be out in the open for one turn. Besides Talons are cool. The Devourers are only S5. Good against infantry, not so good against Vehicles.

Skip the Devourers and stack up on +1 WS, Acid Maw, etc, etc.

I say talons - the point of a flyrant is speed, getting into combat with the enemy is its specialty.

Ordinary fexes can supply that TL devourer shootiness

fexes cant get into range fast enough to use those guns. 12 S5 shots that reroll to hit and miss, followed up by a S6 TMC nasty puts the fear of the emperor into a lot more. tyrant can still kill tanks in combat, but with guns hes not useless out of it.

Yeah, two extra attacks in Close Combat can be important now because of how the resolutions work, but twelve shots at strength five, rerolling misses, rerolling failed wounds.... That's sexy.

I've been running a Winged Tyrant with 2x Scytals.

I'm not terribly impressed with him. There are a lot of units he just can't mess with. A big mob of Orks with a Klaw in it? Great, in a couple assault phases he's dead, and he took maybe 5 Orks with him. 30 points of Boyz? No thanks.

If he can find an enemy IC, some Terminators, vehicles, anything relatively high price with no Fist, he's great. Otherwise, meh.

It depends on your list, but I'm thinking that a walking shooty Tyrant is your best bet. My list has 3 Dakkafexes in it, and while they're not fast, and at times I'm too cautious and they end up oot of range, you just can't beat their brand of firepower. It just overwhelms with wounds, and with all the cover these days, that's the way to be.

Living ammo makes the slightly lower S of the Tyrant's Devourers much less of an issue.

I don't know if you're dead set on wings, but if I was to playtest a new Tyrant, it'd be a walking Dakkatyrant sorta guy. Might try some Guards just for fun.

Say you take this:

Flyrant
Adrenal Glands +1 WS, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks, Implant Attack, Toxin Sacs, Winged
2x TL Devourers

// 181, 4 Wounds @ 3+

Why not take:
4x Warriors
Adrenal Glands +1 WS, +1 I; Enhanced Senses, Extended Carapace, Flesh Hooks, Toxin Sacs
Barbed Strangler, 3x Deathspitter, 4x Scything Talons

// 177, 8 Wounds @ 4+

Flyrant can take Warp Field, Warriors can add more bodies or whatever.

If you are taking a Flyrant, take a Flyrant. There are better shooting options, including the Dakkafex.

I personally go for the scything talons. With a 12" move he can cherry pick his targets. My opponents know this and he has yet to survive to get into combat (some terrible dice rolling on my part...5 dice @ 2+ warp field save...rolled 4 1's....not just once but all 3 games I have used him). I stand by my choice however.

two pairs of Twin-linked Devourers all the time
if he runs off on his own, he's dead.
he should only run off is theres a tank in assult range.

// 177, 8 Wounds @ 4+

Actually, I have been looking at the idea of a group of Warriors as HQ for a while. They can sit and cover and blast away, unlike an MC. Unfortunately, they lose firepower every 2 Wounds they take, while a bigger bug does not. They also have a lot weaker statline, and die easily to Bolter fire. They lack the CC power of a MC as well.

I bought the models, but I don't know if I'll ever paint them. I don't think this build is really all that effective.

There are better shooting options, including the Dakkafex.

Sure, BUT... You can only take so many. If I could field 10 Dakkafexes, I would. And I'd win every game I played. But the rules limit what you can do. As it stands, I field 3, along with 2 Gunfexes and 3 Zoanthropes. I'd love to have another, but I can't buy any more HS or Elites. With the Tyrant I can.

I'll have to cost it oot and see, but after playing my Dakkafexes, I could see putting two in my list.

warriors are great with dreathspitters, give one a barbed for extra shooting (ok, its weaker, but its better for large ammounts of troops)

if you need some serious CC in the army, take 5 raveners with talons, the amount of attacks they can throw out is insane, mixed with thier speed makes them a threat to most things.

If you were playing rant with guns, would it be more optimum to have some T guard meatshields or without?

I'm not planning on any Dakkafexes myself. My `fex plans are for Crushing Claws, Barbed Strangler, Tusks, and a Scythe Tail, as well as the +1 Toughness, Wound and Armor. Maybe not the BEST set up, but he'll look darn cool. His cost will probably keep me from taking two and still getting all the Warriors I want.

I'd forgotten about Raveners, and they do have the cool looking new models... (ok, not new new, but newer than the previous crappy ones)

Aduro wrote:Yeah, two extra attacks in Close Combat can be important now because of how the resolutions work, but twelve shots at strength five, rerolling misses, rerolling failed wounds.... That's sexy.

Yea it is, I built 3 different Hive Tyrants for my Tyranid army, and the WInged Double Devourer one by far performs the best, it awlays gets its points in kills, I had games in vegas where it put 12 wounding hits on targets for 3 turns in a game. It almost single handedly destroyed a space wolf army in one of my games there.

A gun armed flying tyrant has an effective threat sphere of 30 inches. A CC armed one of only 18 (half that), and when not in CC the claw ones do.... nothing. The gun armed tyrant is still a significant threat in CC and is not easily avoided as it is to fast and has a good range. Walking tyrants and all CC tyrants are all poor choices.

Until the venom cannon gets fixed the optimal build for the Hive Tyrant is definitely the double devourers, wings, Enhcanced senses and Warp Field.

Good luck.

2 attacks in cc vs. 12 twin linked, reroll to wound, S5 shots is what boggles me on this one. You have to be seriously bad at math to get that one wrong.

There used to be some logic in equipping only for CC and trying to get 'stuck in' to avoid retaliation on the opponents turn, but with combat resolution changing so drastically this is practically a non-issue now. You're going to be in the open with a CC tyrant or with a shooty tyrant, so go for the one that is more effective against the widest variety of targets.

My honest vote is to go shooty, lose the wings, and get some guard (lash whips). As a unit you will have an easier time getting a cover save, 5th edition has become all about survivability, and with run you'll be participating in the fight on roughly the same turn as the flyrant would be.

I have seen the flyrant with the guns used to GREAT success by a few of the nid-zilla players in my parts. If I was going to do it, that would be it...

Looks like:



But is really a:



Its not really a big bug, it plays like a gunship, it's a Hind!

Wolverines!

Every time I see a Hind I think of Red Dawn (or Rambo).

Agree that deverant is best way to run a flying tyrant. Although w/ 5ed I am reluctant to use a flying tyrant, keeping them alive in the current rules is difficult, between LOS and new combat rules.

winterman wrote:Wolverines!...w/ 5ed I am reluctant to use a flying tyrant, keeping them alive in the current rules is difficult, between LOS and new combat rules.

Yay wolverines! LOL

Don't forget, wings are not a valid target, it's in the rules, have to see the body!

Lets look at this from a different perspective.

What is the 2x Devourer Flyrant good for? It is arguably best at killing infantry.

What other unit in the Tyranid codex is good at killing infantry? Everything bar the Zonathrope.

What is the 2x Scything Talons Flyrant with Implant Attack good for? Killing other MCs, multi-wound units and characters with Eternal Warrior.

What other unit in the Tyranid codex is good at killing MCs, multi-wound units and characters with Eternal Warrior? Well, since the nerf on Rending I am inclined to say none. Genestealers lack the speed and (sadly) killing power to tackle those units. A large unit of CC Tyranid Warriors is much to costly to do this effectively and is better spent killing infantry. A Carnifex needs to be fully tooled towards CC to take on this job but is to slow to be reliable. And so on and so forth.

In today's environment there are so many armies that use units that follow the above criteria, e.g. Chaos (Daemon Princes, Obliterators), Orks (Gazzy, Nobs, Meganobs), Space Marines (all the new special characters), Eldar (Wraithlords)... Also when considering what path GW seems to be taking with their Special Character and Eternal Warrior madness I think that the 2x Scything Flyrant is becoming a much better option and may, in time, take the place of the 2x Devourer Flyrant as the best unit in the list.

There is of course another perspective to be looked at (there always is) and that has to do with the Tyranid concept. Although many will most likely disagree (since there are no right answers in this field) I think that the Tyrant should not carry guns. It is the best close combat unit the Hive Mind has to offer (staying withing the limits of the codex here) and should be used as such. A race that engineers its soldiers to maximize efficiency would not squander its best close assault potential by giving it a gun (or two guns). Also, the thought of a monster the size of a small building hiding behind a larger building, shooting at its pray just does not feel right. What it should be doing is biting the head of said pray before ripping it in twain with its massive talons.

A flyrant with devourers will outperform a flyrant without against most monstrous creatures. Simply because devourers are actually pretty good at wounding big things too:

Against a T6 3+ save target:
12 shots
8/12 hit
3/4 hit on reroll
11 hits total
4/11 wound on 5s
2/7 wound on 5s
6 wounds total
2 failed saves total (1 total if it's another 2+ save MC)

In combat, 2 extra attacks vs. T6 buys you:
1/2 hit
1 hit total
.5 wound x 2 for implant attack bonus
1 failed save total

The edge moves towards the CC tyrant if the target has lower WS and a 2+ save. All other scenarios favor the devourers.

The only time extra attacks will benefit you over the devourers are if the target cannot be harmed by the devourers at all (AV12 vehicles). So a CC flyrant is unequivocally better at killing vehicles than a devourertyrant, but to be honest the devourer tyrant still performs the job just fine. 4 vs. 6 attacks on the charge vs. vehicles is just not a significant difference to outweigh the benefits of such an awesome pair of guns.

Moz wrote:A flyrant with devourers ... such an awesome pair of guns.

Indeed, great post.

I got to play my Flyrant against an IG/Sisters army in a tourney once, it killed:

Las AT squad
Grenadier squad
Leman Russ
Sisters Squad
Hellhound

Moz wrote:A flyrant with devourers will outperform a flyrant without against most monstrous creatures. Simply because devourers are actually pretty good at wounding big things too:

Against a T6 3+ save target:
12 shots
8/12 hit
3/4 hit on reroll
11 hits total
4/11 wound on 5s
2/7 wound on 5s
6 wounds total
2 failed saves total (1 total if it's another 2+ save MC)

In combat, 2 extra attacks vs. T6 buys you:
1/2 hit
1 hit total
.5 wound x 2 for implant attack bonus
1 failed save total

The edge moves towards the CC tyrant if the target has lower WS and a 2+ save. All other scenarios favor the devourers.

The only time extra attacks will benefit you over the devourers are if the target cannot be harmed by the devourers at all (AV12 vehicles). So a CC flyrant is unequivocally better at killing vehicles than a devourertyrant, but to be honest the devourer tyrant still performs the job just fine. 4 vs. 6 attacks on the charge vs. vehicles is just not a significant difference to outweigh the benefits of such an awesome pair of guns.

Well I actually buy Acid Maw, Toxic Miasma and Adrenal Glands (+I) so its hitting on 3+ most of the time and re-rolling to wound for the first round. And therein lies the difference, since with Implant Attack the extra wound can differ between killing the MC or being killed.

You say that all other scenarios favour the devourers but if the 2 extra attack get 1 failed save vs. T6/3+ that equals 2 wounds with Implant attack. I guess the score is even and that is before taking into account the close combat upgrades.

Also, I almost never fight against vehicles I get the opportunity to hit on 4+ or better. The extra attacks do count a lot when hitting on 6+.

That being said, I must say that you have made a point though. Why not take the best of both worlds, 2x Devourers AND Implant Attack (+combat bonuses). Might cost a fair amount but it would buy a lot of flexibility.

Nasty!

Augustus wrote:

winterman wrote:Wolverines!...w/ 5ed I am reluctant to use a flying tyrant, keeping them alive in the current rules is difficult, between LOS and new combat rules.

Yay wolverines! LOL

Don't forget, wings are not a valid target, it's in the rules, have to see the body!

Well Flying Tyrants still come down to being MC with only 4 wounds (T6/2+ wounds granted) that opponents love to kill. Plus, given the low amount of LOS blocking terrain in 5th, oponents have a much better time of accomplishing thier mission. A tyrant with guard gets full advantage of area terrain, can readily get cover even from the smallest of troops, and has 2-6 more ablative wounds.

I guess the question is what complements your current list. In my case, I am running gun-line nids with lots of DS spam. I myself switched from a Flyrant to the dakka tyrant with guard and have been better pleased with its resiliancy. The Dakka Tyrant w/ guard complements this list better than a CC Flyrant that would otherwise be out on its own, granting both additional firepower and a bit of CC counter attack. Against MEQ, the dakka tyrant (3 kills) is better at killing infantry than the dakkafex (2 kills).

If your list is geared towards CC and getting into the frey as quickly as possible, I would consider either a dakka Flyrant or a walking tyrant and either twin scyths or lashwhip and scyths (dakka would be lost running) plus a guard retinue.

Well that's an abrupt near 180 in popular opinion. It's sounding like an expensive tyrant too, with virtually every biomorph being suggested as something to take.

Just to add spice, I have had ridulously good luck with a melee tyrant with warp blast + tyrand guard.

Resilient next wave attack . . . from a resilient Syanpse unit.

shrug

Augustus wrote:

winterman wrote:Wolverines!...w/ 5ed I am reluctant to use a flying tyrant, keeping them alive in the current rules is difficult, between LOS and new combat rules.

Yay wolverines! LOL

Don't forget, wings are not a valid target, it's in the rules, have to see the body!

I like that, my multiple oversized insect winged Red Terror (Flyrant) will profit from this.