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Hi,

The shooting rules state that when firing a template weapon (a flamer for example), that the template cannot touch a friendly unit at all.

The problem is if i shoot a flamer,doom siren or similar from a rhinos fire point at a unit outside of the vehicle part of the template will touch the vehicle i am in (which is obviously a friendly unit).

So can a model shoot a flamer from inside a transport or not?

Logic says yes, rules say no?

Thanks in advance,



GMort.

Yes. the flame template is placed next to the hull (at least in the case of open-topped vehicles). With a closed top vehicle I believe it is the same (I'm pretty sure there is not a requirement to use a "modeled" fire point - but I could be wrong).

Unfortunately when shooting from a fire point the distance is measured from that fire point.

This means that in the case of a rhino any template weapon would touch the rhino before it touched an enemy unit.


GMort.

open topped batlewagon, full of burna boyz, sounds like a plan

Thats great if your an ork, unfortunately a rhino isnt open topped.


GMort

Yet another reason why I'm dubious about Redeemers...

Huh?!? Why would any of this discussion have a dang thing to do with Redeemers? Redeemers fire just like any other vehicle mounted template weapon: touch the small end to the weapon and flame away.

As to the discussion, I know it doesn't necessarily have any pertinence on the current edition, but the 4th ed FAQs always held that you could fire templates out of fire ports, and that any part that crossed the vehicle structure was assumed to be fired over the vehicle - not onto.

a battlewagon full of burnaboyz.
who needs a redeemer?

and why dubious about redeemers CC?

If the actual vehicle was firing it wouldnt be a problem.

My problem is there is no way to fire a template from a rhino fire point without there being some overlap and unlike in 4th Ed. there is no rule that i can find that overrides the "not touching friendly units" rule (for vehicles).



GMort.

GMort, think about it logic wise to start with, a marine would be half out of the hatch, so he is firing over the rhino in theory.

Unfortunately i occasionly encounter players who ignore logic in favour of "rules lawyering" and i would like to be able to have a nice easy rulebook page number to quote at them.

But obviously you are right, logic says that firing the weapon shouldn't be a problem.
Lets hope anyone i play is as reasonable and logical as you are when my doom siren wipes out half of their squad.


GMort.

just model a marine in the desigated place on the vehicle, measure from the barrel and he can then see its clear

JD21290 wrote:just model a marine in the desigated place on the vehicle, measure from the barrel and he can then see its clear

Except the rules don't tell you "measure from a model poking out of the firing point" they tell you to measure specifically from the firing point, that is from the opening itself.

While I agree you would be pathetic to deny the shot, you are either playing RAW or you aren't but there's no room here for modelling for an advantage other than moving the top hatch on a rhino

As for the Redeemers, if it turns out that the template can't touch the vehicle, then things which are directly in front of the Redeemer cant be targetted (as the templates would cross the front of the hull)

I'm not saying I'd play that way (I'd probably go for the middle ground of measuring from the fire point/weapon but saying the vehicle itself is ignored) but imagine if the FAQ answer comes back thus:

If a model fires a template weapon from a vehicle's fire point, place the template with the narrow end touching the vehicle's hull as close to the fire point as possible. (ie a typical GW fudge) then RAW, vehicles with template weapons measure from the end of the weapon, but can't touch the vehicle.

I'd like to see what fire arcs are left for SoB Immolators or SM Razorbacks with heavy flamers...

While I agree you would be pathetic to deny the shot, you are either playing RAW or you aren't but there's no room here for modelling for an advantage other than moving the top hatch on a rhino

placing the model in the top hatch is so people can see how a gun is fired.
im sure they dont just poke the gun out of the hatch and start firing.
the model would be at an elevated possition rather than the same height as the hatch.
it gains no advantage, just:

1: makes it alot moe clear.
2: looks good.

I thought when dealing with models inside a vehicle, you measured from the hull of the vehicle?

This is how a Librarian's psychic hood works, Icons in CSM squads, etc.

JD21290 wrote:placing the model in the top hatch is so people can see how a gun is fired.
im sure they dont just poke the gun out of the hatch and start firing.
the model would be at an elevated possition rather than the same height as the hatch.
it gains no advantage, just:

1: makes it alot moe clear.
2: looks good.

my point still stands that the core rules say that you measure ranges and check line of sight "from the fire point itself", if you are measuring from the guys poking out it's not RAW, that's all I'm saying, and then you don't need them anymore anyway cause you aren't playing RAW and you may aswell just say "lets let the template overlap with the rhino a bit"

ok, so how do razorbacks fire?
this means a ork sized model cant be hit within a few inches.
and after that, please explain how an immolator can fire

Yeah that'd be my next question - how can an immolator or any other vehicle with a top-turret flamer weapon fire?

Or yeah, that brings the Redeemer into question too - if the template hits anything it touches, and you measure range by touching the template to the sponson, you hit yourself!

This is why I don't like RAW and prefer RAYGWTPI - Rules As Your Group Wants To Play It

At least its not just me who's confused then.


GMort.

JD21290 wrote:open topped batlewagon, full of burna boyz, sounds like a plan

Of course, you can't fire from the vehicle if it moves over 6", which kind of takes some of the fun away. Granted, you can always hop out and fire, but so could the people with flamers in a rhino.

I always thought that a model can fire over itself but not a friendly model I.E. another model in the unit or another unit all together.

i would agree with dexy, it makes alot of sense

Of course, you can't fire from the vehicle if it moves over 6", which kind of takes some of the fun away. Granted, you can always hop out and fire, but so could the people with flamers in a rhino.

meh, give it red paint job and 4 big shootas
then move 6" (counts as 5") and start killing horde armies

JD21290 wrote:meh, give it red paint job and 4 big shootas
then move 6" (counts as 5") and start killing horde armies

You can only fire one big shoota if you move.

Still doesn't help me much unless i just cut the whole top off the Rhino and make the hatch go right to the edge.

Its a lot of work to resolve something that should be common enough an issue for the game designers too have written a rule for though.



GMort.

Razorback with Twinlinked H. Flamer can it fire or not? You have to place the template from the turret so um yea.

Oh my god. Are you serious. Stop reading the rules to give people headaches. Which you just gave me with this question. You place the templete on the hull close to a fire point. Stop adding silly points.

YES YOU CAN FIRE A FLAMER FROM A RHINO OR ANY VEHICLE WITH A FIRE POINT. YOU JUST PICK THE CLOSEST PART TO THAT FIRE POINT.

[]---===) Just like that.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:Oh my god. Are you serious. Stop reading the rules to give people headaches. Which you just gave me with this question. You place the templete on the hull close to a fire point. Stop adding silly points.

YES YOU CAN FIRE A FLAMER FROM A RHINO OR ANY VEHICLE WITH A FIRE POINT. YOU JUST PICK THE CLOSEST PART TO THAT FIRE POINT.

[]---===) Just like that.

Man, I'm glad you showed up and fixed this all for us.

The issue still stands that by RAW, you cannot fire a template weapon out of a rhino's fire point because part of the template would touch the model. This is something that you must clear up with your opponent before you start to play. It probably could use an FAQ, but unfortunately, as it stands right now in the rule book, you cannot do it.

The people that think this relates to a vehicle's own weapons are funny. I hope. The ones bringing up other types of shooting are almost as funny.

This made for fun discussions. I want to see the RAW of why this isn't true. Not that I would call an opponent on it . . . and my army has niether templates nor vehicles.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:Oh my god. Are you serious. Stop reading the rules to give people headaches. Which you just gave me with this question. You place the templete on the hull close to a fire point. Stop adding silly points.

YES YOU CAN FIRE A FLAMER FROM A RHINO OR ANY VEHICLE WITH A FIRE POINT. YOU JUST PICK THE CLOSEST PART TO THAT FIRE POINT.

[]---===) Just like that.

Personally I'd make you put the template at the fire point itself, not at the closest point on the hull, that's a luxury only open topped vehicles are entitled to, but I agree that while there's no provision in the rules for this flamer from a rhino's top hatch there's a clear resolution that allmost anyone will agree on.