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Every time I look at the XV25 Stealth Suits I come to the conclusion that they... suck. They are way too expensive for what they do. Every now and then I have the same thoughts, I look at them again and... naah, too expensive.

As a vehicle-hunting deep strike-unit? 95 points for 1 melta? Ouch. Deep strike scatter (maybe reroll, but anyway) and bs 3 (4 at best without markerlight support for that one shot). Naah. I'll take a Monat Crisis instead if I want to do that. Cheaper.

Just as they are. Naah. 30 points shoot as 3 rifle warriors more or less. 3 firewarriors can take more damage usually. And firewarriors are scoring. Stealth Suits fail. Again.

My last thought is based on the fact that stealth suits are... yes, suits. They can have drone controllers. A Gun Drone is 10 points a pop and gets to keep jump-shoot-jump as well as the stealth field. Sounds like a fair deal.

So my experiment is based on massing up 6 stealth suits (one is a teamleader with a bonding knife) with 12 gun drones. 18 wounds with stealth field and jump-shoot-jump. Infantry here I come! Lots of S5. Since it is a large unit it benefits well from markerlights as well making the damage output quite ok (30 shots, with ~15.7 hits, and it increases quite a lot with 1-2 markerlights - 21 hits with 1, 25.7 hits with 2).

I'm still not sold on the idea, but I feel that it is one of the remotely ok uses for the stealth suits (sure you don't need the whole 6 of them, but 2 drones per suit is the main idea). I will definately try it, at 1500 and above.

Now, break it into pieces people

Stealth suits are great just as they are.
They rock against infantry.
Use them on a flank where stealth field means they wont take fire from anyone they arent shooting at and kill one target.
They are actually very good at not dying because they are hard to shoot at and unless you are making massive mistakes only a couple units in the game can assault them.

I had a game against Tau a little while ago (pre 5th). He had this uber upgraded unit of stealthers... that one unit blew 1 of my three monoliths and then proceeded to single handedly phase me out

Never under-estimate those little suits >.<

So perhaps they are ok in some instances then, judging from your experiences. But also, with luck any unit is good. T3 and 3+save isn't that much for 30-points-a-piece. Stealth field doesn't go that long (21" median) so pure bolters can just kick away.

But if they are ok with burst cannons, they should be well off with drones as well. 3 drones shoot roughly as good as one stealth suit. Then filling up with drones should work very well.

I'm not totally convinced yet, but it is good to know that others find them useful. Perhaps I'll try them out a bit more before giving up on them.

That funny upgrade that allows the Leader to shoot at a different target is very nice, especially if you give the leader that anti tank weapon

Sorry for the lack of terms.. havn't played Tau since 3rd edition

Stealth Suits are good at one thing: shooting Burst Cannons at infantry. The Fusion would be better if it had 18" Range. They are Tau! Why not give it 18".

Has the OP tried a squad of 3 with team leader with ML and 2 ML drones?

Don't forget they can outflank, as well. 6 suits turning up on your flank and unloading 18+ Str 5 shots is never nice.

Zoned

Dal'yth Dude wrote:Has the OP tried a squad of 3 with team leader with ML and 2 ML drones?

The "stealth Marker team" deserves underlining; it is one of the most points-effective ways of getting marker lights into Tau Lists; it is also much more durable than a pathfinder unit .

see analysis at heresy-online

I have a friend that makes heavy use of stealth suits as vehicle and MEQ killers. They are expensive, but if you handle them right they can wreak havoc.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:Has the OP tried a squad of 3 with team leader with ML and 2 ML drones?

Nope. Only 2 markerlight drones and standard teamleader. The cost of markerlight drones makes my skin itch. While I agree that the markerlights are more survivable in a Stealth Marker Team I still think that the cost is outrageous. If I'd play footslog/static tau then perhaps I'd think more of it, but since I use devilfishes anyway I gladly use pathfinders. 12 points per markerlight (I'd get a devilfish in any case for my firewarriors).

3 stealthsuits with teamleader (markerlight) and 2 drones. I don't have my codex here right now but that's somewhere around 160-170 points right? Thats 14 pathfinders! 14 markerlights versus 3? 14 wounds versus 5 (5 with stealth field and 3+/4+save instead of all 4+save) I leave the pathfinders in cover and let them shoot markerlights as long as they are alive. If my opponent shoots the pathfinders, then he may. I still have all my shooting units left. I he doesn't, then they keep on shooting their MLs. They are the static part (with 48" range) of my mobile army. I consider them sacrificial.

And if I consider the full team of SMT (6 drones): 290 points for 7 markerlights? 7 pathfinders cost 84 points. And yes, I count out the devilfish since I get it anywway. If wouldn't get the devilfish at all, it may be an option. Maybe.

I just can't justify the cost for those three markerlights (that have 2 burscannons as well, but that isn't something to celebrate). So I'm not sold on it. Just paying too much for it.

3 stealth suits, 1 upgraded to team leader w/ markerlight + 2 marker drones is 165 points. You could buy 2 7-man Pathfinder teams for that. 3 marker shots vs. 14. 5 wounds vs. 14. I'd rather put the 14 pathfinders on opposite ends of the table and let my opponent try and shoot them out of cover. Whoever sees greater shooting can go to ground, while the other 7 keep lighting their army up. Though frankly, a 6-man unit where 2 suits have fusion blasters and target locks can be very handy for threatening both infantry and vehicles. Plus the fusions cut up anyone else they get in range of.

As far as mobility goes, with a 6" scout, or 12" scout in the devilfish if I'm desperate, I can usually get pathfinders into optimal firing lanes for first turn marking.

That link you posted is not a balanced comparison, as I don't know any Tau players who use the pathfinder's devilfish for the pathfinders anymore, so it's unreasonable to include the fish's cost into the pathfinders for comparison purposes.


edit: snuck in ahead of me, eh Greggo? good to hear it's not just my opinion though.

"That link you posted is not a balanced comparison, as I don't know any Tau players who use the pathfinder's devilfish for the pathfinders anymore, so it's unreasonable to include the fish's cost into the pathfinders for comparison purposes."

That's not vaild reasoning. One still purchases the devilfish as part of the pathfinder loadout.

A kitted out 'fish with 8 pathfinders will run over 165 points. The stealth team will likely survive longer than a pathfinder team because they have to be seen to be targeted whereas the pathfinders just die to heavy bolters.

In 4th they were the second most points-effective way of getting ML hits into a list; I don't recall if J-S-J drones are allowed to fire heavy weapons; or what BS drones are (vs Pathfinders) (no codex handy). And; yes that analysis includes the mandatory cost of the d'fish with the pathfinder unit. (apples to apples people).

Cover saves in 5th may have given pathfinders some added survivability; but outflanking and run most definitely have not helped. Further PF's are yet ANOTHER fragile tau unit that is competing for terrain on deployment.

If you have an opponent who walks into the "markerlight-shooting gallery", he deserves to be lit up; I doubt a competent player would make that mistake.

On the pro side; PF's come in the (now) sparse Fast Attack slot; and don't compete with XV8's in the elite slot.

Standard "groupthink" has XV8's being the most flexible, useful unit within the codex, and reducing their availability (via Stealth teams in general) isn't spectacularly wise.

what I mean by that is that including the pathfinders' devilfish in their cost for the purpose of costing markerlights is unreasonable, as the devilfish has no correlation. Yes, I technically purchase it with the pathfinders, but I'm also not paying that devilfish cost to transport my warriors, so it's a wash. It's too short-sighted to make the pathfinder's force org selection mutually exclusive with the rest of the army. In 4th edition, I would have agreed with you, because it was solely the pathfinder's transport. In 5th, it's almost never. Clumping them together price-wise is akin to saying markerlights are junk because they don't directly put wounds on an enemy unit; it doesn't take the whole issue into account.

Survivability is the issue at hand, I think. Pathfinders have gained increased survivability through the plethora of available cover saves, but markerlight drones in stealth suits are now relentless (and are BS3, for the record), so thankfully stealth marker teams are at least viable now. The kicker is the free-roaming Devilfish in my opinion. It's actually better to buy the pathfinder's fish for your warriors (or kroot now! for a cheap scoring tank.) than to buy it for the warriors, because of the beacon.

Don't take this as me denouncing the stealth marker team, I'm just stating my preference, and the reasoning for it.

The Defenestrator wrote:what I mean by that is that including the pathfinders' devilfish in their cost for the purpose of costing markerlights is unreasonable, as the devilfish has no correlation. Yes, I technically purchase it with the pathfinders, but I'm also not paying that devilfish cost to transport my warriors, so it's a wash. It's too short-sighted to make the pathfinder's force org selection mutually exclusive with the rest of the army. In 4th edition, I would have agreed with you, because it was solely the pathfinder's transport. In 5th, it's almost never. Clumping them together price-wise is akin to saying markerlights are junk because they don't directly put wounds on an enemy unit; it doesn't take the whole issue into account.

I wasn't clear on my meaning here.
You have 3 Force Org slots for Fast Attack; and 3 for Elite and 3 for HS.
You can put Marker lights in each slot. (Pathfinders (or tetras), Stealth Marker Teams (or Markers on / with XV8's), and Skyrays (and Sniper Drones)).
Putting ML's in any one slot means you can't use that slot for "other things" (cost-benefit).

IMO the Elite Slots on the Tau Roster suffer the heaviest competition between "good, useful, valuable" units.
If you could buy 1 more Force Org slot for 100 points, you'd buy 1 more Elite slot, and fill it with XV8's.
Using a Stealth Marker Team denies you the ability to use a Full 3 Elite Slots for XV8's either a Cheap DS Fusion Monat, or a pair of death-rains.

The Defenestrator wrote:
Survivability is the issue at hand, I think. Pathfinders have gained increased survivability through the plethora of available cover saves, but markerlight drones in stealth suits are now relentless (and are BS3, for the record), so thankfully stealth marker teams are at least viable now. The kicker is the free-roaming Devilfish in my opinion. It's actually better to buy the pathfinder's fish for your warriors (or kroot now! for a cheap scoring tank.) than to buy it for the warriors, because of the beacon.

The trade off has shifted; Survivability versus Mobility. The ability to 1> scout with the devilfish, 2> transport other infantry have moved it from being a point-sink and liability (just mobile terrain), to being useful.

The Defenestrator wrote:
Don't take this as me denouncing the stealth marker team, I'm just stating my preference, and the reasoning for it.

It's an option; the OP asked what you could use a XV25 for, SMT wasn't in the list, it's a valid use for XV25's (if you must use XV25's); but in general I think its a wiser decision to Not use the XV25, and instead toss in another XV88. *(MY preference)

I agree that SMT is an option I didn't write about in my list. Since I need fishes I consider pathfinders way cheaper than XV25 MLs.

BUT, what of the loadout I describe in the end? 6 Stealth Suits (1 Team leader + 1 bonding knife) + 12 gun drones. This is a BIG unit compared to other alternatives (only the kroot can go bigger).

In most cases I'd run more XV8's, but if I wanted to bring out my stealths I think this would be the way to go.

And a sidenote. I agree with Tacobake that Fusion Blasters have too short range. Tau with 12" range. That's like... like... like... Vespids... crap. I bring one now and then on a crisis though.

It all depends on the army you are facing. I love the plasma when I'm facing MEQ and love the stealths when I'm facing a horde.

however, 18 shots with a little markerlight help will hit pretty well and cause a fair number of wounds. I've taken out an entire terminator Squad using a stealth suit unit before.

skipmcne wrote:In 4th they were the second most points-effective way of getting ML hits into a list; I don't recall if J-S-J drones are allowed to fire heavy weapons; or what BS drones are (vs Pathfinders) (no codex handy). And; yes that analysis includes the mandatory cost of the d'fish with the pathfinder unit. (apples to apples people).

...
...

J-S-J units didn't used to be allowed to fire heavy weapons but they are now, if I am correct. This makes Marker drones much more worthwhile.

Lots of people used to swear by Stealth Suits in 3rd and 4th edition. Have the rules changed their effectiveness that much? The burst cannon has a short range, but the extra number of shots is surely useful in the new situation of lots of cover saves.

geggo wrote:I agree that SMT is an option I didn't write about in my list. Since I need fishes I consider pathfinders way cheaper than XV25 MLs.
BUT, what of the loadout I describe in the end? 6 Stealth Suits (1 Team leader + 1 bonding knife) + 12 gun drones. This is a BIG unit compared to other alternatives (only the kroot can go bigger).
...

I honestly don't understand the fascination with units being LARGE; you are going to wind up taking a morale test after 9 wounds. even with the BK your LD still blows. so you wind up sinking more points into TL-Pulse rifles that run off the table after taking shots... AND because they're a BIG unit you can't hide as many of them; meaning it will be harder to get that magic ratio to allow cover-saves.

If I had more energy I'd try to run the theory-hammer on the "shooty stealths" VS Boyz but my gut is feeling that they won't outperform their points in Fire-warriors.

When I read that title I was thinking of AX-1-0s, and I was like "holy crap!! You have more than one?"

EDIT: AX-1-0s are a Tigershark variant.

geggo wrote:Every time I look at the XV25 Stealth Suits I come to the conclusion that they... suck. They are way too expensive for ... etc ... see OP

I would not go as far as to say they suck as it does depend on how you use them. My friend who I introduced to Tau has a nasty habit of trying to get me into cc at every opportunity and is honestly suprised when I hand his ass back to him on plate. Reason? He doesn't play the army and its units the way its designed. Thinking 3xBroadsides will beat the hell out of 10 Assualt Marines with a Chaplain is daft lol

So I give you this as food for thought
take a squad of 3 Stealth, give them either shield drones or gun drones, a fusion blaster, bonding knife
use the above to outflank the enemy to go tank hunting. This should help spread out his advance as he will try to send units to counter your flank
OR
take a squad of 3 stealth all with burst, give them gun drone and a bonding knife (markerlight optional)
use them to support either your rear lines to protect your Fire Warriors, or use them in support of advancing kroot/vespid

This is the way i use them depending on what I field in the rest of the army and use either one of the two to fill in the gaps.

Back to the OP's originl question:

I think this is an iteresteing setup. It has to be balanced against 30 fire warriors, which put out the same shots at longer range and WAY more shots at close range, are scoring, and can take a lot more wounds. However, that isn't the whole story.

I'm not normally a huge fan of XV25's, but with outflanking/infiltrating this unit can put it's ~30 shots (16ish hits... TL BS 2 is slightly better than BS 3) somewhere that they are very useful, and can pin. Even a plain old full squad of stealths only gets 9 hits on average, but the addition of gun drones putting on an additional 7 or so hits can take this unit from 'almost cool' to 'functional in the army'.

It's 300 points though. I don't mind spending that on troops, but for that kind of investment, they better be making their return every single time. If you have markerlights in the list, I see this unit benefitting from +1 BS -3 cover quite well (or +2/-2). A full pathfinder squad will average 4 hits/shooting phase, so thats a real possibility. Now you're talking about some seriously interesting math:

+2 BS means: 18 stealth shots, 15 hits; 12 Drone shots, 10 2/3 hits --> T4 means 17 wounds; T3 means 21.5 wounds ---> MEQ means ~6 wounds and a pin test; GEQ means about 21.5 wounds and a pin test (if necessary) or 18 1/3 wounds if they're in cover, which would now only be 6+.

So, with a little markerlight support, this unit looks a lot more worth its investment than without. Against MEQ, you only need 2 ML hits, as no cover negation will ever be needed.

I'm not a big beleiver in people who say stealths are hard to kill (though I believe that more than people who say they are good in HTH...that might used to have been the case, but with new assualt grenade rules and MEQs getting them for free put a huge wrench in that philosophy). TLOS and the frankly decent range of average night shooting means their all around survivability took a pretty big hit.

All in all, it sounds like this unit is interesting and original, but it better have a plan that works, will have a lot of work to do to earn its points back, will probably need some ML support to reach its full potential, and is a really big investment.

Rmeju

One thing to point out here, is that while people are discounting the price of the devilfish from the the pathfinder teams, you should discount the price of the stealth suits from their teams as well. Since the suits are still functioning normally while their marker drones do the laser-pointer game.

I personally prefer pathfinders, but it's more because they are a balanced threat against the rest of the units in my force. Focusing on them and getting lucky won't ruin my day like it would with a 500pt unit of stealthsuits with markers.

Just realised my post didn't include the rest of my text, damn copy and pasting at work to hide my use of dakka lol

6Stealth and 12 drones is one hell of a unit. You've got a huge amount of firepower as well as good durability against standard incoming fire. The only drawback other than its high points cost is that you have to get into 18" range to use the awsome firepower and once you do, you are at great risk of being assualted in cc.

Once that happens then all those points are a complete waste and if unsported you'll see that squad get eaten alive in cc. Granted they will last a long time due to their high numbers, but against most armies, chances of winning are remote against squads geared for combat.

If anything, I'd actually recommend you split the squad clean in half, so that at least you can shoot at more targets and also support each other if they get into trouble. Or in worst case flee with one squad leaving the other to protect the others retreat

I pretty much always use stealth suits; I just like them, even if they feel a little expensive. They get a lot of shots and sometimes the stealth field generators can really save your butt. Most of all, my friends are just terrified of stealth suits, so they give you some tactical options there...

The stealth field generators used to make them harder to assault, too, but the wording doesn't give them any benefit in the new edition

I think you people are missing something here: Stealth Suits Always Shoot, and Stealth Suits Never Die.

It is damn near impossible to kill a 6-man Stealth Team, played properly, without dedicating a disproportionate amount of force to killing them. They need to be cornered to be killed, and that requires maneuver AWAY from any core your army has. Your opponent has only two choices: CHASE the Team, or IGNORE the Team.

Contrast this to FCW, the simplest comparison people make to Stealths. They are static, unless mounted - and if mounted, their cost per shot is much higher. The FCW are also much more killable - with 4+Save, yes, but also with the fact that everyone CAN shoot at them. The FCW also must stand still in order to shoot effectively - again, unless you are hopping in and out of transport.

Which brings me to another point: calculating likely shots per game. People forget that Hammerheads get shaken and lose shots that way. People also forget that FCW lose shots every time they move. How many shots per game can you expect to get, on average, from a unit of FCW?

===============

Presume that you are running mounted FCW. Look at the best case scenario: you run up turn 1, dismount, and RF. Let's say you kill everything, get back in transport turn 2, and repeat on turn 3 (again, you found a good target). Take NO return fire, jump back in on turn 4, zip and RF on turn 5. I'll even grant no return fire, and that you find long range shots worth taking on turn 6.

That is 7 shots per game, per FCW. 7 shots per 10 point model... oh, wait. Sorry, you gotta add in the Devilfish. Let's say you take an average DFish, at 100 points, and we'll even SKIP the (standard) Shas'ui and Bonding Knife upgrades to make this cheaper. That's 220 points for 12 models. 18.3 points per model... or 2.62 points per shot, in this functional model.

What all has to work for this scenario to come true? What potential points of failure are there that your opponent can exploit to REDUCE your shots per game, and thus INCREASE your effective points cost per shot?

1) The Devilfish must survive and be mobile, un-stunned, for the first 5 turns. (Does that happen?)
2) Your FCW must always be able to dismount within 12" of a suitable target. (Usually can happen, but safely?)
3) Your FCW must never be shot at by enemy fire after dismounting within 12" to shoot. (Wat?)
4) Your FCW must never be charged after they dismount within 12" to shoot the enemy. (Watwat?)

So how many shots per game do your mobile FCW actually get? Be honest, mech tau players. Even in your most optimistic scenario, that's 2.62 PPS over the course of a 6 turn game.

Now run the same analysis against Stealth Suit Teams. You have the same move and shoot range (move 6 shoot 18, vs move 12 RF 12), so consider target finding capability to be largely similar.

30 points per suit, no transport. 3 shots per turn. You shoot EVERY TURN, no exceptions. 18 shots per game, 1.67 PPS. What has to be true for this scenario to be effective? What points of failure can the opponent exploit?
1) (no transport to stun/stop)
2) (same target-finding likelihood)
3) Your Suits must never be shot at by enemy fire after firing from 18" away and moving back 6" more in Assault, putting about 24" between you and the nearest enemy. (With a 21" average spotting distance.)
4) Your FCW must never be charged after firing from 18" away and moving back 6" more in Assault, putting about 24" between you and the nearest enemy. (Sounds likely.)

===========

Expensive? Hell no. The Stealth Teams are cheaper than Mounted FCW at delivering S5 AP5 shots to targets over the course of a game. They are more effective at staying alive and effective. They require DRAMATIC changes in enemy tactics to chase down and stop them. And again, they are 63.6% (1.67 vs 2.62) of the cost per shot over the course of a game... even in the BEST CASE SCENARIO for Mounted FCW, which is pretty damned unlikely. The 57% uplift (at least!) that you are paying for Mounted FCW had better be worth it in the fact that it is a scoring unit and can tank shock enemy off objectives.

I invite someone to run the analysis on anticipated lifespan of Static FCW squads. 135 for 12 troops... doing it backwards, you have to get 6.74 shots per FCW per game in order to match that 1.67 PPS efficiency rating from Stealth Teams. Do you find that your static FCW will get 7 shots per 6 turns? (5 regular turns of shooting and 1 RF turn, with NO CASUALTIES?) Unlikely.

Stealth Teams are efficiency monsters, and points denial beasts. They are game changers and game directors, and that's BEFORE exploring the options you pick up in terms of DSing behind vehicles, into artillery, and behind advancing infantry lines. Or just outflanking, since you have Infiltrate. Or just deploying forward and flanked, with Infiltrate.

===========

Final note: Stealth Suits Don't Need Backup. They *are* the backup, or they can operate independently all game long. They don't require cooperative support, which makes them highly reliable and fairly unique in the Tau Codex.

-JTS

Postscript: I've looked at marker stealth teams, BS4 stealth teams, small fusion stealth teams, giant stealth teams with all gun drones, and other variants. I don't see anything better than the base naked stealth unit, by and large, though sometimes the gimmicks can complement your army (if you REALLY want markerlights, for example).

(The biggest problem with 6 suits + 12 gun drones is that the unit is too big to effectively maneuver and avoid charges while getting all your models to shoot each turn. It's a pain.)

Some good points JTS1486. And a nice explaination ... however...

Expensive? Hell Yes!
I grant that point for point you get your money's worth with them. The point about them being expensive is because you have a lot of points rolled into a single squad. If that one squad gets into assualt or fails a morale test then you can only watch all those points dwindling away or running away.
For the same amount of points you can field at least two squads of Fire Warriors which gives the enemy more units to worry about, more options of where to shoot/assualt"god forbid! lol" and if one gets assualted you have the choice to assist or run to protect one of the squads.

Stealth can field the role of support and also offensive. So yes I agree that they ARE the support in most cases. In my own army the fire warriors and suits ARE the support. The sucess of either tactic depends on the compliment of your army I guess.

I also grant they are tougher, but experience has shown me that even a full compliment of stealth with drones being attacked by 10 Chaos Raptors will rip the stealth to shreds. Which brings up my previous thoughts about all those points being stuck in one place and missing out on shooting which is what they really ought to be doing.

Don't let my statement detract you though, I actually think you raised some good points and just wanted to show the otherside from my own experience.

Fire warriors may be cheaper, but there is a reason for that. I think that while you can take up to 2 squads of Fire warriors at the cost of 1 Stealth Squad, really why would you want to?

It may just be me, but I fill out my army from the compulsory choices and fill out from there. And having 2 static squads of 9 troops choice may not be the best use of points. JTS1486 put it quite nicely imo, Stealth Suits (played correctly) will always earn their points back. FCWs ... not so much USUALLY. I'm not saying always and there is the stipulation that the stealth suits have to be played properly and not played in charge range. But it can be done much easier than having a squad that is mostly static and can be circumnavigated.

Said statement about two FW for the price of 1Stealth was meant as an example. I should have written more clearly lol.

I tend to go for a half wagon wheel formation and use the jet packers of all kinds jumping back and forth from cover taking out advancing enemies. I guess my statement comes from my own way of playing of being a very defensive player so I tend to avoid my suits getting into CC and when I do I pile in to ensure they survive by sheer volume of attacks.