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Since ranged anti-tank is such a problem in the daemon list this is what I was thinking of running for my HQ's.

4xHerald of Tzeentch w/chariot, bolt of change, we are legion, and master of sorcery.

Lots of shooting, at multiple targets. Jetbike movement meaning you can move into and then out of rapid fire range. Decent close combat against lighter units if you have to. And then you can rely on dp's, bloodcrushers, and bloodletters for nasty combat support. What do you guys think?

Why bother with shooting at all? Possibly a stupid question but Daemons can take on most tanks in cc as they hit the rear. Tougher tanks (Landraider, fast moving skimmers) are generally hard to take down, this particularly holds for your sucking(sorry) Heralds.

In my Daemon experience...the best anti-tank in a Daemon army are two things:

Bloodthirster(s) with or without Unholy Might - 6 S8 or S9 + MC armor pen attacks kills land raiders dead.

Soul Grinders in assault - 5 S10 attacks on the charge.

There's no problem with ranged tank hunting - you don't sit far away. I agree go for close combat GD's or Princes - I also find a chap with rending on a jugger quite effective, S6 +6 + a possible D3

your best anti-tank units for Deamons will be any MC though most useful will be anything with wings.

The ranged firepower forces people to deal with different things. The Tzeentch heralds have a 4+ save which is as good as a greater demon. Each has 3 st5 ap3 shots and a st8 ap1 shot which can be fired at two different units. they have 5 wounds each. You have to decide what is more important when shooting. You have more wounds than a greater demon for cheaper. You can shoot down transports to let your combat units get to the units inside.

The main thing is I wasn't saying don't run an MC, i'm all for including a DP or two. And it will be these units that go after the Landraiders and such. But these units are best used killing light tanks and transports while also contributing to the total death toll with demonic gaze, something you don't want your big guy spending the game doing.But the firepower brings a different element into the list which it normally lacks. Makes it more well rounded and forces the enemy to react.

Plus they could turbo-boost in end turns and contest objectives. As the only thing in the list that can move 24" in a single movement phase (without assaulting) this also makes them very, very useful.

Sorry, maybe I should have explained better Hope that helps as to why I was thinking of the unit.

As good as heralds are, wings MCs are the best Anti tank.

Here's the big problem: S8 is not anti-tank, no matter how you slice it. It'll kill most transports and all light vehicles with ease, and do fine against monstrous creatures and anything with wounds. But against offensive armor, S8, even AP1, is an utter failure unless you're throwing something like a dozen dice with reliable attrition damage.

It will take you so long to knock out even one AV14 vehicle that your opponent will just shoot your Bolters to death, and then if that's your primary anti-tank, he'll roll over the rest of your army.

Winged MCs or Soulgrinders. That's your only real chance versus AV14 vehicles.

btw Hulksmash, they count as jetbikes, not eldar jetbikes. Ergo, no 6" jump in the assault phase.

I've heard several people they like piles of tzeentch heralds, but I can't be bothered to give up my MCs.

Jetbikes is a universal special rule iirc. Is that not correct that all units that count as jetbikes have that special ability? dark eldar and such.

@Sourclaims

I realize this. I was planning on bringing Soul Grinders and DP's. The heralds would be for light tanks, mc's, and transports just like you stated while also being able to hurt infantry at the same time.

Hulksmash wrote:The heralds would be for light tanks, mc's, and transports just like you stated while also being able to hurt infantry at the same time.

Exactly. This type of herald is ideal for blowing up Rhinos, Chimeras, and even Serpents and Devilfish. You want something that can take these out at range, so that the rest of your troops can assault the squishy insides. Mech transports moving over 6" is one of the best defenses against a Daemons army, as our typical reliance on cc to blow up vehicles, even with MCs, is much harder to achieve when they hit said tanks on 6s. And I'd rather not waste my MC charges on simple Rhinos when I need them to destroy heavier tanks, like Predators, Leman Russes, or Land Raiders. Lets not forget, even if I do blow up said transports in close combat, the squad inside will usually simply disembark and rapid-fire my unit back to the warp on the next turn. Hence the utility of a daemon who is reasonably good at taking out said light transports.

Having said that, more than one or two such Heralds is committing more points than really is worth it to the role. If you know for a fact the type of army you're playing against, then they might be worth it, but as I like to use at least one of my HQ slots for a GD, I doubt I'd ever use more than two such heralds.

I tend to rely on screamers for my anti-tank. Even land raiders have a problem with S8+2d6. And few skimmers are outrunning them and doing anything effective as well, anything that can outrun them, is definitely going to outrun your other CC anti-tank.

(all quotes page 53)

Jetbikes: "In the assault phase, jetbikes are treated like normal bikes when assaulting, as they must move close to the ground in order to fight." (emphasis mine)

Eldar Jetbikes: "All Eldar Jetbikes (including dark eldar ones) are allowed to move 6" in the assault phase, even if they don't assault."

I wish you were right.

if you need ranged anti tank then any winged MC will work

or a herald of khorne on chariot with: unholy might and deatstrike.

S7 on the charge and a 12" S7 AP2 shot per turn.

Hulk can you tell us what else you are planning on taking in the list?

I've used 3 tzeentch heralds and the masque at one time before. The masque was used to pull mc's and heavy infantry out of cover so that the heralds could light them up. This was done in a list with all the troops being horrors and then a lot of cav (fiends, seekers, screamers) as counter assault.

The heralds are very good at popping light av 10-12. Especially if you go a bit risky with their deep strikes and land to get rear shots. They are very much an annoyance unit because as long as you stay out of rapid fire range it takes some serious firepower to take one of them out.

They can also be used as speed bumps to keep a unit of assaulters at bay for a turn.

If you rely on cc to pop tanks anyone rhino rushing, or heaven forbid immolator rushing you will have a field day with your list as they run over 6" tank shock and push your units around. At that point you better either have large units or very resilient units.

The rest of the list is (give or take)

2x3 Flamers
5 Bloodcrushers
2x10 Bloodletters
2x8 Horrors
2 DP's with wings and skin

And any extra points are going to Mounted daemonettes since I own 12.

This list gives me the firepower for the more hordish lists out there w/2MC's for big tank hunting as well as a solid core of combat goodness in the form of the khorne units. The number of units causing fire to be either dispersed or overkill to make sure a unit dies. There are a lot of high priority targets in the list which also disperses fire power. The horrors are excellent because they can hold back far enough to run back to my objectives at the end of the game. Just a basic rundown of what I was thinking.

I've certainly seen the 4 Tzeentch chariots work wonders. It's surprisingly good anti-tank, due to the AP 1 and bs 4. The fact that it comes from 4 durable platforms and doesn't require the loss of any anti-infantry fire is also a plus.

In particular, they work well for (as everyone else says) popping rhinos and the like in the shoot phase, so you can charge them with crushers or what have you.

What I see more often, however, is Kairos and 2 chariots. The rerolls are just clutch.

Have you thought about using grinders instead of flying dp's?

With fleet the grinders are almost as fast and will give you both shooting + assault.

They work well providing cover for advancing crushers, letters. Or sitting back lobbing pie plates and protecting horrors.

I worry about single shot losses that grinder represent. I'm play testing with both before I make my descision for the next tournement season. I like them but it's going to take a few months before I feel comfortable either way.

Hulksmash wrote:I worry about single shot losses that grinder represent. I'm play testing with both before I make my descision for the next tournement season. I like them but it's going to take a few months before I feel comfortable either way.

There is that possibility. But the overall survivability of the Soul Grinder over a Daemon Prince is very significant. For one thing, 2/3 of glancing hits and 1/3 of penetrating hits do nothing at all. 13/13/11 armor makes it a tough target as well.

A lascannon shooting at a Soul Grinder has a 72% chance of doing nothing at all, and only an 11% chance of dying. And that assumes that the lascannon hits.

The Soul Grinder can also effectively ignore any attack that's S6 or less.

Overall, I really can't see any reason why someone would pick a Daemon Prince over a Soul Grinder, with the exception of an Epidemus list, a Pavane Prince, or for fluff reasons.

I know statistics wise the Soul Grinder is a better grab but I'm still not totally convinced it's best for the list i'm building. The personal playtesting w/my style of play will tell me which one fits better overall for me I think. But it's a definite that i'll have to field one or the other since i'm probably going 4 heralds for HQ.

I dunno, I can see a lot of reasons to take a Daemon Prince over a Soul Grinder.

DP w/MoT, Daemonic Gaze, Bolt of Tzeentch is the same points as a one-upgrade grinder, but fights much harder, and shoots much better. The grinder's edges are fleet and the immunity to small arms fire, but if you want to land far away and shoot with your HS choices, the DP is far superior.

They are mainly focussed i think on the large blast being available to him. I'm still a fan of wings, hide, and gaze. It's expensive but makes him flexible enough and a danger to the bigger transports and infantry alike.

Hulksmash wrote:They are mainly focussed i think on the large blast being available to him. I'm still a fan of wings, hide, and gaze. It's expensive but makes him flexible enough and a danger to the bigger transports and infantry alike.

The large blast is nice, but I've had plenty of games where the grinder never actually fires the phlegm. An awful lot of times, I'd rather run to get him in assault ASAP.

Marine players are starting to find this out with their new av13 dread but that extra point of armor is huge.

All of a sudden you need a 6 to penetrate with your standard power fist. Harlequin's can't even hurt it in hth, the best a stealer can do is glance. The only things that will tear them down in hth are chain fists and monstrous creaters, or of course another dread .

Instead of going with the 4x herald's on chariots have you considered 3 and the blue scribes, their utility of having all the spells is very good.