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- Someone, in a small local tourny (in five days) I am holding, is into CSM (Slanessh) and wants to put deamonettes back into his army. My question is: Where I to let him have them as a 0-2(or so)troops slot and still use lesser deamon summoning rules would they be unfair. That being too powerful, what about not letting him get upgrades for them. I feel compelled to give him some leeway as he is making some sacrifice to fit his army to slanesh (ie. sticking to the "favored number", not taking stuff 'off-limits' to slanessh in the prior CSM:Codex, ect...). I, however, must be fair to others that are playing(though what I say goes)...so...any thoughts? (soon, I have to let people know)

- Do pardon the..."scatter-brain"ness of this post as I have much caffeine coursing through me and need to run it off.

Thanks for any help and good gaming everyone.

On first blush I would say no, you shouldn't allow it. Primarily because then you might have to make allowances for everyone who has a fluff argument to include various units that used to be (witchhunter zealots, cultists for alpha legion) or that they think should be in their lists.

There is no reason he can't use the daemonette models as "generic" daemons in his list. Same look, slightly different game play.

Ultimately, its your tourny, but I think exceptions beget more exceptions, especially if this is a "competitive" tournament.

Yes it would be unfair - unfair to everyone else at the tourney.

Would you allow Black Templar players to use Storm Shields from the new SM codex, giving assault squads a 3+ invulnerable? Would you allow Blood Angel players to field tactical squads at the point cost from the Marine dex?

No you shouldn't allow it. Hey, it's great that he's sticking to sacred numbers, etc. That's theme and fluff. Encourage everyone to give him good soft scores. If you let him mix and match codeci, however well intentioned, you're opening up a huge can of worms, and probably make more people unhappy, than just the one that you make happy.

Tell him to mix and match in Apocalypse games, or friendly games against you, but not in the tourney. I'm not saying that he's asking to abuse the rules and develop an uber-winning-list-of-doom, but others will think you're bending the rules to favor your buddy.

Making him use two separate detachments might work. A Herald of Slaanesh and two units of Daemonettes. The Chaos Daemons follow their rules, and the Chaos Space Marines follow their rules. Done and done.

Edit: Re-reading my post I think I need to mention that I think that the solution Cruentus offers, requiring that Daemons in Chaos Space Marine armies be Lesser Daemons, is probably the best solution.

The main problem is that Lesser Daemons can assault after deep striking, while Daemonettes can't. If you disallowed assault after deep strike for them it probably wouldn't be too bad.

Also, witch hunter zealots are no longer legal? The witch hunters codex hasn't changed since their conception.

I don't think this is a question of balance. I think it's a question of "is this fair to the other tourney players"?

What about someone playing a World Eater army with only Berzerkers and units with the MoK? If they showed up with Lesser Daemons, they'd be angry for not being able to use a Herald, Bloodcrushers, Bloodletters, etc.

What is fair - to all the other players - is to use the codex as it is, with no modifications. This isn't about what Player Slaneesh wants to field, it's about giving everyone the same opportunity.

For friendly games and APOC, feel free to do whatever and develop some balanced house rules.

Real example. I played in the 350pt Hordes tourney at Origins 2-3 years ago. It was supposed to be Fang and Claw - warlock and beasts only. So, I showed up with a legal army. Several other players showed up with infantry units and solos, so by the pre-determined tourney rules - not a legal army. Since there weren't many players, and to make it fun, the organizer (Jason Soles, iirc) allowed people to field infantry, which was a considerable advantage for some (Trollblood Champions, I'm looking at you). If I had know that fielding infantry was an option, I would have shown up with some, and it would probably would have been a more competitive army for me.

Let him use Daemonette models to represent his CSM Lesser Daemons.

Done, fluffy, great.

Allowing him to mix and match codices, especially in a tournament setting, regardless of how fair and balanced the outcome actually is, will create huge, huge headaches for you.

sourclams wrote:Let him use Daemonette models to represent his CSM Lesser Daemons.

- He does. I guess I am of the mind that the two codices should have been made to work together...but that bias aside and as other players do not seem to mind:

- How can I make this work and be fair? The only problem seemed to be that other people would be unhappy. It IS possible to balance this out...points, slight rules changes, etc...

Use two force Organization charts. Allow Deep Striking Chaos Daemons to use Chaos Space Marine Icons. The Herald of Slaanesh cannot join units that do not have the Mark of Slaanesh. Do not allow the Chaos Space Marines to use Summoned Daemons in the same army as Chaos Daemons.

I would say no. Daemonettes are a strong unit that has been balanced around the army it was meant to fit into - a Chaos Daemons army. Taking them in an army with CSM causes a mess of balance problems and allows oppertunities that the csm codex wasn't balanced around. Even with point increases they could be too useful.

How can I make this work and be fair?
You can't and still have any sense of balance and fairness for non chaos armies (and pure daemon armies for that matter).

He can either use lesser daemons or go daemon codex. Throw an APOC tournament if you really wanna allow it, that way everyone can throw down stuff that they want that isn't legal.

Icons in daemon armies are expensive for a reason.

To allow someone to place a unit of daemonettes exactly where they want them with a cheap icon is in my opinion unbalancing.

If the reasoning is just to make the army fluffy rather than for competitive reasons, then he should just represent lesser daemons with daemonettes.



Gmort.

Remove the ability to assault after deepstriking.

Make him pay X points per icon more to be able to use it for the Deamonettes.

Particularly in a tournament setting, each army should follow the rules given by its codex. Each army is designed with its own, individual and internally cumulative strengths and weaknesses.
Demons, for example, have highly distinctive deployment rules. Their point costs and stats have been designed with these rules in mind.

Seriously, stick to the codices.

My tournament CSM list usually includes no more than 2 Broadside Battlesuits, 1 Gyrocopter, 2 Cankerworms, and a handful of Risk cards. So he should be allowed to do it.

Back to reality, as a CSM player I can sympathize, but it's just not fair to go cross-codex unless otherwise allowed.

groz wrote:My tournament CSM list usually includes no more than 2 Broadside Battlesuits, 1 Gyrocopter, 2 Cankerworms, and a handful of Risk cards. So he should be allowed to do it.

Back to reality, as a CSM player I can sympathize, but it's just not fair to go cross-codex unless otherwise allowed.

Mine has 2 Maugan Ra's

... any way back to the OP ... only way i can think that having 2 codexs are 2 detachments with a slight mod of 1HQ + 1 Troop from CSM and 1HQ + 1 troop from DOC every thing else must fit into the standard FOC (so only 2 hq 3 Elite 6 troop ... ect) ... each detachment works as stated in their own codex unless theres an overlap (ie icons so they don't scatter)

wait... Summoned Daemons can assault after deep striking?! D8 grah! I didn't know that!

and yeah... the whole CSM / CD issue really bugs me... I play slaanesh, and I really hate that my daemonettes count as 'summoned lesser daemons'... sure I get +1 to strength and toughness... but I lose fleet, rending, and a higher initiative. and if what you're all saying is true, I wouldn't get to assault after deep striking, and I shouldn't be able to use icons to prevent scattering...

to me that seems rather balanced... plus, Daemonettes are only 1 point more expensive than summoned lessers... so I really don't see what the issue is...

Apocalypse or not, I think allied factions should be able to field together as long as they stay within the unit allocation rules. why can't an IG squad have a small group of space marines with them? the high cost of the SM's would keep the player from taking storm troopers or that extra bassilisk... plus, storyline wise, why wouldn't a squad of space marines be sent to aid an IG army in a battle deemed important enough? it makes perfect sense to me. XD The same concept applies to the chaos issue... I'm a slaanesh player... I want Daemonettes, not generic daemons.