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Suppose I take a Librarian mounted on a bike with the Gate. Can he join a unit of bikes and teleport them?

G

Yes. It says any unit he is with can teleport with him.

Matter of fact, for argument sake he doesnt even need to be mounted ona bike in the first place. The bikes just have to move at his pace if he is on foot. But if you are gating 24" a turn then who minds.

But there are things to consider here. Gate might have some uses on bikes, but if you are going to move that far, sometimes its a nice benifit to get the Cover Save provided for a Turboboost.

Though being able to move that far and still shoot (if Gated) is nice as well.

He can gate them out of the assault phase if they get bogged down, which has some definite benefit for bikes.

I asked because back when the 13th Company was legal one of the resident game developers stated the rune priest could not teleport a Storm Claw biker squad... So I just want to make sure.

Thanks for the replies!

G

sourclams wrote:He can gate them out of the assault phase if they get bogged down, which has some definite benefit for bikes.

That is an assumption. The rules are anything but clear. I believe they tend more towards not allowing teleporting out of CC. (And it is in the movement phase in any case.)

Until it's FAQed, it's legal.

necrons have been doing it for years.

G

sourclams wrote:Until it's FAQed, it's legal.

Again, your assumption. We have had this discussion at length, and don't need to repeat it here.
The short version.
1. GoI says you can use it in the Movement phase, thus you can use it to get out of CC.

or

2. GoI is moving units. And the rules say that while you can use GoI, you can't move if locked in CC. GoI says nothing about over riding that rule. So no movement if locked.


While I agree a FAQ would be beneficial, I believe there is more reason to say it cannot be used. (remember, you have to follow *all* of the rules, unless you are *specifically* allowed to break/ignore one)

necrons have been doing it for years

Yes, and Orks can do it with 'ere we go now too.
The difference, is that both of those have *specific* working allowing you to ignore the 'no move if locked' rule. GoI does not have that.

you said not to repeat it then you did anyways. It's not a big deal to me either way.

: )

G

However, I believe an IC joining a unit must have the same locomotion to join. So an infantry cannot join bikers, etc.
Also, the Gate can only be used at the beginning of the movement phase and counts as the units movement. Since the gate is a Deep Strike movement, and a unit in close combat does not get a movement phase, the Gate cannot be used to pull the unit out of close combat.

pavonis wrote:However, I believe an IC joining a unit must have the same locomotion to join. So an infantry cannot join bikers, etc.

No. Different movement modes will not prevent an Independent Character from joining a unit. They'll only move at the rate of the slowest, but it does not forbid them from joining.

pavonis wrote:However, I believe an IC joining a unit must have the same locomotion to join. So an infantry cannot join bikers, etc.
Also, the Gate can only be used at the beginning of the movement phase and counts as the units movement. Since the gate is a Deep Strike movement, and a unit in close combat does not get a movement phase, the Gate cannot be used to pull the unit out of close combat.

Where do you get the idea it counts as the unit's movement, it's used in the movement phase, and they are placed on the table using the deepstrike rules, which would include prohibiting further movement in the movement phase IMO, but there's nothing in the ability that suggests it counts as the unit's movement that I can see

Firstly, lets think of all the previous and current uses of a teleport type item/spell.

Can any of us think of a teleport type power that could NOT be used with a unit in CC.

Veil for Necron lords
Monolith TP
Gate for SW 13th Co.
Ere we go for Orks
What other powers are there? can't remember right now

All of these powers can be used to TP a unit out of CC.

Why would this one in question not be able too? These all work in the movement phase as well.

I always take precedence as a means to determine (that which can not be determined until an official FAQ) what can or can not be done. Seriously, does there 'have to' be wording about a unit locked in CC? Since, the rule specifically says "The Librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back together...using the deep strike rules."

By RAW you literally grab said units and DS them up too 24" away. It literally tells you to do it. Its at the beginning of the movement phase and the player is simply following what his rules tell him to do.

At what point in the main rule book does it say you can not do this? Does it count as movement? Don't know, it doesn't say, but since you are using the DS rules, you can't move anyways after that (except to run of course). It can be argued that DS rules are a type of movement, but are not special rules in codexes (sp?) used to contradict or countermand the general/standard rules in the main rule book?

Green Blow Fly wrote:necrons have been doing it for years.

G

As well as swooping hawks with SkyLeap, not that anyone uses swooping hawks.

Not that it's worth anything official but askyourquestion responded that yes, GoI can be used to escape CC.

coredump wrote:

sourclams wrote:Until it's FAQed, it's legal.

Again, your assumption. We have had this discussion at length, and don't need to repeat it here.
The short version.
1. GoI says you can use it in the Movement phase, thus you can use it to get out of CC.

or

2. GoI is moving units. And the rules say that while you can use GoI, you can't move if locked in CC. GoI says nothing about over riding that rule. So no movement if locked.


While I agree a FAQ would be beneficial, I believe there is more reason to say it cannot be used. (remember, you have to follow *all* of the rules, unless you are *specifically* allowed to break/ignore one)

necrons have been doing it for years

Yes, and Orks can do it with 'ere we go now too.
The difference, is that both of those have *specific* working allowing you to ignore the 'no move if locked' rule. GoI does not have that.

Coredump,

Would you mind posting the link to the thread you referenced above? Thanks

padixon wrote:Firstly, lets think of all the previous and current uses of a teleport type item/spell.

Can any of us think of a teleport type power that could NOT be used with a unit in CC.

Veil for Necron lords
Monolith TP
Gate for SW 13th Co.
Ere we go for Orks
What other powers are there? can't remember right now

All of these powers can be used to TP a unit out of CC.

Why would this one in question not be able too? These all work in the movement phase as well.

And all four of those abilities specifically mention that they can be used to pull the unit out of CC, while the Gate of Infinity does not. I personally don't understand why you'd naturally assume that Gate can be used to pull models out of CC when it lacks the proviso that the rest of these abilities have.

I'm guessing you don't plan to assign the 'lose a model on a doubles roll' rule to those other abilities (for example), so why would you assume that Gate of Infinity would get to use a rule that each of those abilities says they have but the Gate does not?

I always take precedence as a means to determine (that which can not be determined until an official FAQ) what can or can not be done. Seriously, does there 'have to' be wording about a unit locked in CC? Since, the rule specifically says "The Librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back together...using the deep strike rules."

By RAW you literally grab said units and DS them up too 24" away. It literally tells you to do it. Its at the beginning of the movement phase and the player is simply following what his rules tell him to do.

At what point in the main rule book does it say you can not do this? Does it count as movement? Don't know, it doesn't say, but since you are using the DS rules, you can't move anyways after that (except to run of course). It can be argued that DS rules are a type of movement, but are not special rules in codexes (sp?) used to contradict or countermand the general/standard rules in the main rule book?

The rules for close combat say that a unit locked in combat can not move except to pile-in.

The rules for deep striking do strongly indicate that Deep Striking is indeed movement (emphasis mine):

"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle."

and:

"In that turn's Shooting phase, however, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase."


Now, if John Spencer goes and gets this ruled on and they rule in the opposite direction then fine, but until then there is absolutely no rules evidence supporting the idea that Gate can be used to pull models out of CC and there is indeed support in the rules against the idea.

The rules for deep striking do strongly indicate that Deep Striking is indeed movement (emphasis mine)

Going by this logic, then you must also follow the order of events described in the rule.

Allow me to explain:

Rule: "...are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back together ...using deep strike rules."

1. First models are removed from the tabletop in the first part of the sentence as the first complete thought is ended at the word "and". There is no such rule that describes what this is called. As in the DS rule only describes DS occurring as moving models onto the tabletop and not from it. Specifically mentioning that they arrive from reserves (again not on the tabletop).

2. The second thought describes how the models are brought back to the tabletop. Of course using DS rules and from yakface's description is a movement.

But note that DS is NOT used to remove models from the table in the first place, and hence there is no rule in the main rule book that describes what that is or how it interacts with other models. Again DS only is used to bring models on to the tabletop.

Fact: psykers can use a power in the movement phase even when locked in CC. No rule prevents this and even more specific, there is no clause that states "instead of moving" or any of the like in the Librarian psychic power descriptions. Simply that it has a time frame to be used in the beginning of the movement phase.

I completely respect yakface's point of view. But, I am not convinced by anything in the rule book that would exclude this form happening.

As I stated earlier, the player is simply following RAW in his codex to first remove the models, and then bring them back on using DS.

Has anyone sent this one into John to have this answered yet?

Edit: So, to fully explain myself, I truly mean that we can only follow precedence on this since there really is no rule or "hard" guidelines on how models interact when units are removed from the tabletop. We can only (hate using this word in this forum) 'assume' that the teleport works like it would in every other teleport power in every other codex.

This is my best at explaining my point of view.

padixon wrote:

Has anyone sent this one into John to have this answered yet?

Edit: So, to fully explain myself, I truly mean that we can only follow precedence on this since there really is no rule or "hard" guidelines on how models interact when units are removed from the tabletop. We can only (hate using this word in this forum) 'assume' that the teleport works like it would in every other teleport power in every other codex.

This is my best at explaining my point of view.

I would then reiterate that every other codex specifically says that the power may be used to remove models from combat, while Gate of Infinity does not state this.

More importantly, you cannot willingly break rules, and the rules for combat disallow moving models who are locked in combat. While the models are simply removed from the table, placing them back onto the table via deep strike will result in a situation where the models have moved on a turn in which they were locked in combat, and that is something which is not allowed. Therefore a player is not willingly able to do so.


And yes, someone sent it in to John and his opinion was that it did allow models to be pulled out from combat.

Unfortunately John's 'opinion' is not 100% official...oh well chock this one up for another rule with divided opinions.