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Wording in the necron codex indicates that you don't get any bonus dice to penetrate the monolith, and it includes melta weapons. I understand this to mean that you don't get the extra d6 for being at half range or less. However, on melta bombs it's listed on pg 63 as being a flat out 8+2D6. No 'bonus' as theirs no modifiers based on range, location, etc. So, do you get the 2d6? I realize that you don't get AP1 like you do on normal melta weapons, as the grenades aren't listed with one.

The correct way to play this is to only give a meltabomb 1d6 of penetration, because it makes sense based on the rule. If you'd like to boil down to RAW, you could debat youself into a corner about it. To me, the wording

Weapons that get additional armour penetration dice (such as chainfists, MC, or Melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the monolith.

You could say that the meltabomb has no extra dice, but that isn't very logical, because all the other examples point to cases of 2d6 being rolled, as an extra dice.

Yeah, but if I go from the same logic, I disallow any model with an unaugmented strength of 4 to get a augmented strength of 8 using a powerfist, as later it says "and weapon attack the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single d6 no matter what." And power fists "also doubles the user's Strength (up to a maximum of 10)." Sounds like augmenting the strength to me, it doesn't actually change the profile, just the attack with that weapon.

Unfortunetly, your example was clearly covered in the FAQ ( http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180146_Necrons_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf ) While mine was clearly mentioned in the rules. (Melta Weapon)

The reprinted codex is very clear on this subject especially the final sentence:

"Attacks which count the targets armour value as being less than it really is (such as bright lances and blasters) do not do so against a monolith. Similarly, weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith. Ordnance weapons still roll 2D6 for Armour Penetration and select the highest score. In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."


In no case do you get to roll more than one D6 for penetration (except for Ordnance).

Sigh. OK. Makes me wonder though why they decided to go the other way and specifically allow powerfists to use the augmented strength. GW for you...

dancingcricket wrote:Sigh. OK. Makes me wonder though why they decided to go the other way and specifically allow powerfists to use the augmented strength. GW for you...

maybe because the unaugmented strength of the powerfist is double the users strength, it's like saying tyranid bio-weapons shouldn't be able to have different strengths because their S is based on the user's, I'm sure Tyranid players wouldn't mind though, thier carnifex with double twin-linked devourers gets 8 Str 9 shots, all twin linked, against your monolith.

Drunkspleen wrote:
maybe because the unaugmented strength of the powerfist is double the users strength, it's like saying tyranid bio-weapons shouldn't be able to have different strengths because their S is based on the user's, I'm sure Tyranid players wouldn't mind though, thier carnifex with double twin-linked devourers gets 8 Str 9 shots, all twin linked, against your monolith.

as far as I know, the maximum strength of a devourer is 6. I hope you havent been playing vs. str 9 devourers.

dancingcricket wrote:Sigh. OK. Makes me wonder though why they decided to go the other way and specifically allow powerfists to use the augmented strength. GW for you...

I am with you dancing cricket.

I lost this fight on dakka long ago, in 4th even. Even the revised rules yak posted seem pretty obviously to forbid the augmented strength bonus powergloves and claws and the like imply, but the entire community at large spontaneously agreed to let them have the bonus anyway. Which I still find Ironic given the tendency to play and or argue from the RAW perspective.

yakface wrote:...unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what.

How can this be construed as multiplying St vs living metal works...? The Eldar witch blade style weapons with tripple S are in the same boat. I think the argument went something like, well the weapon S counts as the user's stregth multiplied so that is the base S of the weapon or some such. I suppose probably because it was so hard to destroy a monolith anyway that it was considered a minor issue, better to rule in favor of the many, not the few.

Now that Monoliths are not always hit on 6s though (for the skimmer rules changing) I think that it is a bigger issue. Ah well, I got rid of my Necrons long ago because I couldn't take the cries of cheese anymore and the army really has little variety.

Good luck with whatever you may be playing!

Ok let me try to wrap my head around this. Necron players get a vehicle that has 14 all around armor, no additional armor pen dice aginst it. An ordance str 8 ap 3 that can't be stripped off by weapon destroyed. It can deep strike, bring in your reserves from it, and re-roll the wbb rolls if you warp through it. The ability to target and shoot as many targets that fall in rage of the side guns, and to get rid of the side guns you have to get weapon destroyed 6 times. You need a str 8 weapon just to glance it and it cant be destroyed on glances anymore. I really don't get what there is to complain about. Not only would the powerfist have to get through your army to reach the monolith, it could only glance it if it hit.(that is unless you deep striked it right next to the enemy) The only thing i see you could be possibly be mad about is that its no longer a 6 to hit it via old skimmer rules. Even with that the list above i think it more than makes up for the off chance that a str 8 power fist could immobilise and strip 6 weapons off it. Even then the particle whip can't be removed so i don't think theres any way a power fist could kill a monolith

I am pretty sure you are misreading what he is saying....

He isn't complaining that the augmented str is used for PF, but rather that it is allowed to contradict the rule while others are not.

@ Bradmmammalamma

Yea, you're right.

You forgot one thing, the monolith still can target a single specific model with the center of the hole at AP 1.

(Which is ridiculous)

If your point is that the monolith is awesome I agree completely.

My point is only that I think people are breaking the rules for a 2% advantage against this awesome thing out of spite.

For the record I think the Necron codex and especially the monolith is a convoluted mess of special rules and I don't really like the monolith particularly which essentially re writes the vehicle rules.

I just think people ought to play by the rules is all, not make an exception just because it is convenient. However I do recognize the case for the S for a weapon.

EDIT for @ bradmammajamma

Harkainos wrote:I am pretty sure you are misreading what he is saying....

He isn't complaining that the augmented str is used for PF, but rather that it is allowed to contradict the rule while others are not.

Right, specifically this thread, where most people play that the meltabomb doesn't get 8+2D6 but the powerfist gets Sx2+D6.

FYI Witchblades and Singing Spears do not augment strength against vehicles anymore. They are S9 v. vehicles. So they would work against the Monolith.

Homer

The crux to this argument is that folks are missing that it is the weapons unaugmented strength. The rule then goes to dissallow any bonus dice gained from, say, tank hunters, melta weapons, or chainfists.

The unaugmented strength of the Powerfist Weapon is Users strengthx2. Everyone automatically assumes this is 8, but Imperial Guard powerfists can only dream about being strength 8. That point leads us to believe that the weapons strength itself is the Users Strength x2.

The monoliths rules make no mention of Users Strength being unaugmented, only the weapons. Again, weapon is the key word in this debate.

MeltaBombs do not get the bonus dice, as put forth by the Living Metal Rule.

Power Fists still strike at User Strengthx2 against Living Metal as it is the unaugmented Strength of the Weapon itself.

My two cents.

Yes, and with the changes to AP1, the monolith is now too survivable.

Too survivable for what? Balanced play? I've yet to see a Necron army dominate a tournament since 5th edition. They have been severely nerfed.

So since balance isn't the problem then what is it about their survivability that is causing issues? It's just a very tough vehicle in the midst of a mediocre (at best) army.

Seconded Democratus!

any gains from the monolith being better (??? maybe) are easily cancelled out by the new assault rules and what that means for the crons.

Also OT, I would play the glove as S8 and the Meltabomb as 1D6 because thats what people expect.

I think it's not RAW, but ah well it's a decent compromise and doesnt seem unfair. IMO

Augustus wrote:
Also OT, I would play the glove as S8 and the Meltabomb as 1D6 because thats what people expect.

I think it's not RAW, but ah well it's a decent compromise and doesnt seem unfair. IMO

Does that mean that Imperial Guard powerfists (gloves) are S8 too? Woo?


Regardless, I think the Monolith is fine for balanced/competitive play. I agree with you both on that.

Unfortunately the power elements for Space Marine power gloves run on

PURE UNOBTANIUM!

The technology to make that was lost in the Dark Age of Technology and the adeptus mechanicus are having a really hard time getting more of it.

Instead of UNOBTANIUM the Imperial Guard powerfists run on simpler technology replacing the UNOBTANIUM powersources with,

PURE BALONEYUM!

Which works but is decidedly less effective, skwishier and generally a better flavor...

Augustus wrote:Unfortunately the power elements for Space Marine power gloves run on

PURE UNOBTANIUM!

The technology to make that was lost in the Dark Age of Technology and the adeptus mechanicus are having a really hard time getting more of it.

Instead of UNOBTANIUM the Imperial Guard powerfists run on simpler technology replacing the UNOBTANIUM powersources with,

PURE BALONEYUM!

Which works but is decidedly less effective, skwishier and generally a better flavor...

Hahah, nice!

Iboshi2 wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:
maybe because the unaugmented strength of the powerfist is double the users strength, it's like saying tyranid bio-weapons shouldn't be able to have different strengths because their S is based on the user's, I'm sure Tyranid players wouldn't mind though, thier carnifex with double twin-linked devourers gets 8 Str 9 shots, all twin linked, against your monolith.

as far as I know, the maximum strength of a devourer is 6. I hope you havent been playing vs. str 9 devourers.

Obviously a bit late but, no, my point was that the devourer works by augmenting the carnifex's strength, it first subtracts 1, then if the result is greater than 6, reduces it further until the resulting str is 6, but since the unaugmented strength is used against a monolith... I cannot see any difference between the devourer and the powerfist.

Democratus wrote:Too survivable for what? Balanced play? I've yet to see a Necron army dominate a tournament since 5th edition. They have been severely nerfed.

So since balance isn't the problem then what is it about their survivability that is causing issues? It's just a very tough vehicle in the midst of a mediocre (at best) army.

Did I say anything about balanced play? I said the monolith(in and of itself) is too survivable. As in stick it on the table, and pepper it with prototypical anti-tank weaponry and you need insane ammounts of it to kill one. Six BS4 or eight BS3 Melta weapons in Melta range will kill a Landraider on average. Technically less than that, as the Average 2D6 roll is 7- but I'm willing to conceede 2 3's and 2 4's so one pens, one misses, and half of the pens will kill it. You need 18 BS4 Melta weapons at any range for a monoloth. 18 shots, 12 hit, 2 Pen, half have an assorted damage result, half have a deadly one. That's a pretty major difference for something with aparently a much deeper glancing "chart" with all the possible weapon destroyed results, as well as a weapon that can't be destroyed, and fewer points to boot.

Yea, and all its other silly powers too. They are beasts eh?

Railguns FTW!

Smack it with an Ork Warboss with a power klaw. It'll die.

Where does it say a meltabomb is a weapon at all? I'm asking just to be contrary, never played against Necrons so I don't need to juggle the rules mess that is the summer cottage (aka Monolith).

Not exactly a bogus question, in and of itself. Melta bombs don't really have an entry in the book of their own, just the one blurb indicating what you roll for armor pen when affixing them to a vehicle. So when it comes down to it, melta bombs don't have the melta rule. Logically, it would make sense that it's a melta weapon, but then logically, you wouldn't be able to walk up to a tank and punch a hole into it and blow it up just because you're wearing a oversized power-assisted gauntlet either. Eh...

Breton wrote:

Democratus wrote:Too survivable for what? Balanced play? I've yet to see a Necron army dominate a tournament since 5th edition. They have been severely nerfed.

So since balance isn't the problem then what is it about their survivability that is causing issues? It's just a very tough vehicle in the midst of a mediocre (at best) army.

Did I say anything about balanced play? I said the monolith(in and of itself) is too survivable. As in stick it on the table, and pepper it with prototypical anti-tank weaponry and you need insane ammounts of it to kill one. Six BS4 or eight BS3 Melta weapons in Melta range will kill a Landraider on average. Technically less than that, as the Average 2D6 roll is 7- but I'm willing to conceede 2 3's and 2 4's so one pens, one misses, and half of the pens will kill it. You need 18 BS4 Melta weapons at any range for a monoloth. 18 shots, 12 hit, 2 Pen, half have an assorted damage result, half have a deadly one. That's a pretty major difference for something with aparently a much deeper glancing "chart" with all the possible weapon destroyed results, as well as a weapon that can't be destroyed, and fewer points to boot.

Nope you didn't. That was me asking a question (notice the question mark). You say that the monolith is too survivable. This begs the question: too survivable for what?

If you are saying that the issue is not balance, then why is it a problem that it takes 18 shots to kill one? It's a very tough vehicle. Not too tough to be destroyed (it isn't invulnerable to damage) and not so weak that it is nearly always destroyed. So it falls somewhere in the middle. What is wrong with where it falls in this spectrum? Seems very reasonable to me that a million-year-old giant floating building would be extraordinarily difficult to stop, even with dedicated anti-tank weaponry.

One point not made so far.

A Melta Bomb is not a Melta Weapon, It's a Grenade. It is listed as a Grenade.

Living army works against Melta Weapons as stated in the codex.

Just my 2 bitz...I'll play however my Necron Opponet plays.

Doc

doc dragon wrote:One point not made so far.

A Melta Bomb is not a Melta Weapon, It's a Grenade. It is listed as a Grenade.

Living army works against Melta Weapons as stated in the codex.

Just my 2 bitz...I'll play however my Necron Opponet plays.

Doc

And per the Living Metal rule, its 2D6 for AP is lowered to a single D6. It being melta or not has no bearing as the rule states that no weapon will ever get more than one D6 for its AP roll, ord is the exception as it rolls 2 and takes the highest.