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I have been playing Eldar for years, but never used the Avatar because I have been playing Saim Hann type list. Now I am interested in playing a more of an Iyanden flavor.

Hence, I would like to know how bad as in hardcore is the Avatar? How does it hold up against the other close combat elite characters of other races?

How do you use one in a typical Iyanden Army list?

I would like some tactical advice from others who use the Avatar often.

You wont use one in Iyanden. He is best used with masses of Guardians and Dire Avengers, both will be scares in an Iyanden Army. Well that is unless you are just calling your army Iyanden as an excuse to spam Wraithlords and run Yarial.



But to answer your question Yes he is bad ass.

I play ulthwe and sometimes take him, he by himself and soak up alot of fire power with care and hits hard and fast in assualt.

As mentioned above he is sort of a waste in Iyanden list as you have fairly expensive troops [wraithguard] that dont need to be bolstered by his fearless rules for near by troops and wraithguard can hold there own in assualt YMMV

Then again he will make the enemy choose between a squad of 10 wraithguard or the avatar, both have T6 anyway

Clthomps wrote:You wont use one in Iyanden. He is best used with masses of Guardians and Dire Avengers, both will be scares in an Iyanden Army. Well that is unless you are just calling your army Iyanden as an excuse to spam Wraithlords and run Yarial.



But to answer your question Yes he is bad ass.

I don't know about the Avatar not being within an Iyanden Army list or Dire Avengers either. I heard that the original Dire Avenger Shrine was located on Iyanden. I also read that every Craftworld has an Avatar ready for battle. The Avatar of Iyanden participated in the defense of Iyanden against the Nids along side of Yriel according to the fluff.

Do the marine special characters and HQ's give the Avatar a good run for his money? What about the Chaos and Nid HQ's fighting against the Avatar? I know the Avatar could not beat the C'Tan Characters.

the avatar owns SM character, i know from experience, with a WS of 10 and S&T of 6 3+/4+* there is little that can pose a thread, except fearles hordes.

Against nids im not sure...I wouldnt like to get into cc with him unless i softened him up first. I reckon a tooled up cc tyrant could take him though. A fex probably couldnt (not enough attacks and only hits on 5's)

Squig_herder wrote:the avatar owns SM character, i know from experience, with a WS of 10 and S&T of 6 3+/4+* there is little that can pose a thread, except fearles hordes.

Vulkan, Calgar, and especially Lysander all can beat the living crap out of the Avatar. In the case of Lysander, he absolutely mauls the ever loving gak out of the Avatar. A Thunderhammer and Storm Shield gives the Avatar a very, very bad day.

Calgar/Avatar is at least a decent match up. Both wound each other on 2s, both have 4++ saves. The avatar does hit on 3s, but Calgar rerolls wounds and has an extra attack.

Vulkan/Avatar, hmm. Vulkan has one less attack, hits on 4s and wounds on 4s. The Avatar has the extra attack, hits on 3s and wounds on 2s. While Vulkan has a better invulnerable save, he has a lot less chance of actually doing damage to the Avatar (roughly 1/2 a wound on the charge) than the Avatar might do to Vulkan (roughly 1 wound on the charge).

Lysander/Avatar, if Lysander can hit and wound the Avatar, he'll have an advantage. 4s and 2s, against a 4++ save from 3 attacks, and then the Avatar and Lysander stike simul. Again, the Avatar will average about 1 wound on the charge to Lysander. But either way, it's a slow grind for either character. Of course, the Avatar costs a lot less than all three characters, especially Calgar.

Bloodthirsters should have a slight advantage against the Avatar, but only a slight one. I've had mine fail miserably a couple times.

Forget the comparisons to SM ICs- you're talking apples and oranges there. Sure, lots of things can beat the Avatar in CC. that's not why you take him, though.

The Avatar is taken to reinforce the leadership of otherwise iffy troops (guardians) and provide a decent counter-charge unit. He seems to work best in advancing shooty infantry lists. he makes your guardian firebase more of an "anvil", which your countercharge unit (probably Harlies) can then bounce off of while the enemy remains engaged with Fearless troops.

The hole in this arrangement is that the Avatar is large and an easy target. Killing him guts the anvil, even if he does pull some fire off of a more deadly ranged unit like 3x warwalkers. If he's your only tough, large creature in an infantry list, he's the immediate target of all the anti-vehicle weaponry that's not being used for anything else.

A decent solution to this is running 3 Wraithlords or 2 Wraithlords and 3x Warwalkers. These units pull the same sort of firepower out of the enemy, and pose more immediate threats during the early turns (especially if the opponent has vehicles. This will help your Avatar live to get into CC. As an added advantage, WLs pack good anti-vehicle weaponry (BL/EML) with a decent BS, filling in a common hole in Eldar infantry armies. Finally, they add more high-strength countercharge potential. Getting charged by two wraithlords is actually a bit intimidating, whereas one WL just isn't that scary anymore

Other folks have criticized this arrangement, saying that 4 MCs (or 3 MCs and 3 light vehicles) are not enough MCs to dilute enemy fire. I disagree- if you hug cover with the WLs and WWs, they are quite hard to crack. In an advancing foot list, your are trying to close to medium range and stay there, going into CC only if you have to.

So the WLs fit the Iyanden theme well: however, I would say that Wraithguard are not great alongside the Avatar, as they are already Fearless and their weapons are too short-ranged to reach out and touch the enemy in foot lists. That's more of a general WG problem than an interaction with the Avatar: the bigger issue is that they suck up points that should be spent on long-to-medium shooting that doubles as meatshields (Guardians, Dire Avengers). If you really, really want a unit of WG in the mix, they might further increase the T6 targets out there to pul fire away from the Avatar, but they will have to be a credible threat to draw any such fire. Unless you're playing against Necrons or a superheavy, they are unikely to be considered more worth the enemy's fire than the Avatar.

After all that, the short version- yes, the Avatar can work in Iyanden alongside WLs, but not with WG.

Oh, and Eldrad will be your best HQ combo with the Avatar, hands dwon. he can protect the Avatar and _still_ Guide two shooty units. They're a bit of a cliche together, but for good reason- they rock.

Hope that helps!

if you are going fluffy, then you would throw out the idea of eldrad [sory im a fluff freak]

Squig_herder wrote:if you are going fluffy, then you would throw out the idea of eldrad [sory im a fluff freak]

Dude, ICs are different now. They do not have to represent the specific character any more, just a character of similar ability. See the new Marines, etc. So just use a different model, name him something else, and you've done enough to distance yourself, fluff-wise.

Savnock wrote:Dude, ICs are different now. They do not have to represent the specific character any more, just a character of similar ability. See the new Marines, etc. So just use a different model, name him something else, and you've done enough to distance yourself, fluff-wise.

Some players would feel that doing that it´s just an excuse for using the model.

Personally I think it´s always much better to use Eldrad painted in yellow and saying is some guy named "Eldred" than just use it as Eldrad himself. At least you show interest and respect in the fluff, and sometimes you can see really awesome conversions...

Ky'Alur wrote:

Savnock wrote:Dude, ICs are different now. They do not have to represent the specific character any more, just a character of similar ability. See the new Marines, etc. So just use a different model, name him something else, and you've done enough to distance yourself, fluff-wise.

Some players would feel that doing that it´s just an excuse for using the model.

Personally I think it´s always much better to use Eldrad painted in yellow and saying is some guy named "Eldred" than just use it as Eldrad himself. At least you show interest and respect in the fluff, and sometimes you can see really awesome conversions...

The reverse is also true. Six in one hand and half a dozen in the other as far as I'm concerned.

But, a fluffy Iyanden list can include 2 - 3 Wraithlords and an Avatar, and then several squads of guardians and dire avengers as the infantry core. You could probably still fit a 10 man wraithguard unit in there as well.

The dire avengers make a really solid "anvil" with the Avatar, as they can take the Exarch with Defend and Shimmershield, and really be a tough nut to dig out of an objective, especially in cover. Unfortunately, you will need a "hammer" unit to break them out of close combat, otherwise they will just be ground down in vain.

I have actually been thinking about a list that would use WG, the Avatar, and WL's as an advancing wall of high toughness with a a soft squishy middle of bladestorming DA and banshees tucked neatly behind as the whole thing advances. I know its not quite as mobile as eldar should be, but i think coughing up the points for those WG as a shield, would still be easier to swallow then paying for a now IMO gimped wave serpent to house each DA squad. Plus as a general I feel it is good to intimidate your opponent a little bit. A wall of T8 and T6 marching forward absorbing lots of gunfire will scare 'em a bit. Plus if you win they will retain that fear and hopefully make mistakes each time they see it.

The wall of T6+ seems too vulnerable to heavy weapons to me, but YMMV. I think I'll try it out this weekend and see what happnes, just for fun. Haven't dug out the old WG since my last Apoc game, and all this discussion has got me feeling nostalgic. I'll try them out against IG and Marines if I can, and report what happens.

oh please do! it would be VERY appreciated before i go to the trouble of spending the money. I know I could just proxy models, but I am not getting to play as much lately so when I do I really wanna play my orks or guard which are my prime projects currently.

I second that

Aztralwolf wrote:oh please do! it would be VERY appreciated before i go to the trouble of spending the money. I know I could just proxy models, but I am not getting to play as much lately so when I do I really wanna play my orks or guard which are my prime projects currently.

Will do. However, WG are just the sort of thing that a nice opponent won't mind you proxying to try out in a game or two. Try your own test-games too- especially because I play Eldar very hit-and-run, which doesn't suit many other players' style. It comes from playing Dark Elves in Fantasy for so long, I think.

I always try for a hit an run style with my eldar... though they ended up on the back burner because once my friends learned how to counter me I just couldn't seem to counter their counters! I think eldar are the hardest army I play because Orks and Guard just make better sense to me. I prefer to use numbers, big guns, big clubs, and dirty surprizes in some combination or another. And eldar dont hit all the notes right for me yet with what I have tried.

Avatar is like many other deamons... if your enemy is throwing a ton of fire into them... they will eventually fail saves and start eating wounds and die.

For best effect, I recommend using a Farseer with Fortune. I've found that a fortuned up Avatar actually stops opponents from shooting him (smart ones) and instead they'll shoot other units.

-Jara

My personaly favorite, Avatar, Eldrad, 3 Wraithlords and all of the troops are Storm Guardians with Flamers each led by a Warlock with enhance, mhmmm. That can get pretty nasty if they aren't prepared for it. Its like orks except faster and and bigger.

Savnock wrote:

Aztralwolf wrote:oh please do! it would be VERY appreciated before i go to the trouble of spending the money. I know I could just proxy models, but I am not getting to play as much lately so when I do I really wanna play my orks or guard which are my prime projects currently.

Will do. However, WG are just the sort of thing that a nice opponent won't mind you proxying to try out in a game or two. Try your own test-games too- especially because I play Eldar very hit-and-run, which doesn't suit many other players' style. It comes from playing Dark Elves in Fantasy for so long, I think.

Wraithguard are a very specialty unit, imagine if you will a rare magic card that at first glance seems over costed and limited use. I think Wraithguard are okay, but they are very tough to use correctly and in almost every case you'd be better off using other tools to get the job done.

I think they mostly exist for the bored Eldar player who wants something new ;-P

That said, I think they work well with a castle charge your whole army down the center build featuring an Avatar, 3 Wraithlord, and 3 groups of 3 Wraithguard.

-Jara

Dont forget that a lot of people will be playing salamanders with flamers and multi melta's... no problem for the Avatar.
I field him side by side with a group of gaurdians with a attached farseer (fortune) and 3 wraithlords. Love this combo...its slow but tough.

I haven't played one in 5e, but I've never had an Avatar do much damage to me. He's only one model, much like a carnifex, all you have to do is make him take plenty of saves and eventually he'll fail enough. Although I must admit, I let hordes or rapid fire take care of him. For such a huge character, the avatar always fell rather quickly to a mob of boyz or to rapid fire tact squads.

That being said, I think I'd run one just because the models are nice. I think I'd try to convert a FW one just a tad to give it a little different stance.