Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey, another installment of Hammers and Nails. Last time we discussed how to hammer Lootas, but this time we've got a hammer and we're looking for nails. The hammer in question is Fabius Bile. Madman, Egotist, Snappy-Dresser, and reputedly the worst HQ choice in Codex: Chaos Space Marine. Suppose you decided to take this guy, or somehow you were just stuck with him, what would you do (army-buliding or tactics) to either make the best of a bad egg, or maximize a monster?

A Mech list would work OK I suppose. Give the squads in Rhinos assault weapons and charge out. Can he enchance other units besides Chaos Marines? If so, use berzerkers instead. Enhance some LC termies. If not, then no, he can't really be used well.

He's limited to units of Chaos Space Marines. So no Berzerkers or Terminators.

Could you explain why you think that Fabius Bile cannot be used well if he's limited to providing the Enhanced Warrior upgrade to Chaos Space Marines?

I'm asking because this thread is, nominally, about brain-storming how he could be of use, rather than simply resting on assumptions that he is of no use. It may be the case that, when considered carefully, he has some heretofore unconsidered advantage.

Given that he can charge with 7 attacks at S5 causing Instant Death to whatever sustains a wound, without the risk of a Blissgiver, though without a power weapon, suggests to me that he would be good for mauling Necrons, for example, or Orks.

Similarly there should be something useful that can be done by shoving Enhanced Chaos Space Marines in Land Raiders, possibly something to do with their inexpensive nature compared to Cult Marines. S5 and Fearless strikes me as handy against Orks, particularly if you want to be able to shoot them up first rather than manoeuvre for the assault like Berzerkers have to do.

I'm throwing these things out here.

How about in combination with a Sorcerer with the Lash of Submission?

CSM horde, maximize the coverage of fearless and +1/+2 S

Throw together a bunch of 15+ CSM squads, buy naked rhinos to block LoS and either Vindis or Defilers for close range support.

Maybe it's just me, but I think max-sized Chaos Space Marine squads is not something you want to apply Enhanced Warriors to, given that a roll of one could potentially see the unit wiped out before it does anything. That's a lot of eggs in one basket.

Maybe something like:

Head Quarters
Fabius Bile

Chaos Sorcerer w/Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission, Warptime, Familiar, Melta Bombs

Troops
Chaos Space Marines (Enhanced Warriors)
Aspiring Champion w/Power Weapon, Combi-Melta
9 Chaos Space Marines w/Two Melta Guns, Icon of Khorne
(255)

Chaos Space Marines (Enhanced Warriors)
Aspiring Champion w/Power Weapon, Combi-Melta
9 Chaos Space Marines w/Two Melta Guns, Icon of Khorne
(255)

Chaos Space Marines (Enhanced Warrors)
10 Chaos Warriors w/Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher
Rhino w/Havoc Launcher
(255)

Chaos Space Marines (Enhanced Warrors)
10 Chaos Warriors w/Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher
Rhino w/Havoc Launcher
(255)

Heavy Support
Land Raider
w/Daemonic Possession, Dirge Caster, Combi-Flamethrower

Land Raider
w/Daemonic Possession, Dirge Caster, Combi-Flamethrower

1850pts (please check my arithmetic!)

Enhanced Warriors seem pretty unimpressive. They cost 18 points to 21 for Berzerkers, unless you get a Icon of Khorne for them which makes them 21 points too (if divided between 10 CSM). Berzerkers more than make up for the being S4 by having WS5 and Furious Charge. Then there is the hidden tax when you roll a 1 or 6 for the Enhanced Warriors. The only way it makes sense is if you prefer meltaguns (and a combi-weapon on the Aspiring Champion) to plasma pistols on your troops.

Arbalest:

I think Enhanced Warriors isn't quite as unimpressive as it sounds. Remember that they retain their Bolters, that they can take Flamethrowers and Plasma Guns as well as Melta Guns, and the bonus S will pretty much cancel out the Furious Charge. In fact, if you take the Icon of Slaanesh, it does!

I don't think it's wise to suppose that units in a Codex are directly substitutable for each other. If they were, there would be no more reason to take one than the other. Using Enhanced Warriors as cheap Berzerkers, as you point out, doesn't wash.

What they do have is Fearless combined with shooting, which is what Thousand Suns, Noise Marines, and Plague Marines have. But they are far cheaper than Thousand Suns, as well as being more flexible. They are slightly cheaper than Noise Marines (because Noise Marines really should have Sonic weapons). And they can be longer ranged than Plague Marines, stronger and faster in combat exactly the same cost for 10 and an Icon.

If you take Icon of Slaanesh, then the Berzerkers come ahead with one more attack than the Enhanced Warriors (which is better against most things). Either way I doubt the utility of inferior Berzerkers that can rapid-fire. Meltaguns and flamers are nice, but they can be taken by normal CSM or Obliterators.

I think that not all units in the same codex are created equal. Hence garbage like Chaos spawn. What role is it supposed to fulfill?

Arbalest:

Of course not all units in the same codex are created equal. If they were, each codex would have a single unit. Different units have different points costs, abilities, and thus roles in particular strategies. Hence, as I argued earlier, thinking of them as Berzerkers with boltguns is thinking about them wrongly.

Take Obliterators, for example. They can have more effective flamethrowers than Enhanced Warriors for cheaper. But they're Heavy Support, so they cannot capture objectives, and point for point are weaker in close combat due to attacking at I1.

Similarly, Chaos Space Marines can have the same ranged weaponry for a considerably cheaper unit. But Enhanced Warriors are more reliable since they are Fearless, and more dangerous to assault since they are Fearless and have the improved Strength.

It seems to me that Enhanced Warriors are for holding enemy held objectives, where they cannot be easily chased off, and freeing up better assault troops for capturing objectives, and cheaper shooting troops for holding your own backfield objectives.

Off-topic:

Personally, I use Chaos Spawn for removing screening units like Grots, Imperial Guardsmen, and Termagants, mangling Kroot and Firewarriors, and distracting fire from my shooting units. They're also useful as a bonus to destroying enemy Monstrous Creatures and Independent Characters, and helping Chaos Sorcerers clear hordes.

... I can think of one simple reason Enhanced Warriors are better then Berzerkers ... they always have S5 not just on the charge, ok one less attack but you can have more for the same cost (i'm taking it that you would have spent aleast 160pts on a good HQ any way)

also they do have the bonus of being combin able with the other icons a large (20ish) Squad with mark of nergle would just be horrible to try and kill as they march across the board

I would give Enhanced Warriors IoN, making them S5 T5. You can also give them IoT and use them like Dire Avengers. Sort of shooty/ defensive close combat. IoK and IoS in themed lists.

Like Nurglitch said, Spawn are good against anything S3 T3. They are also ... average against anything with a power weapon. But they still compete (poorly) against Raptors, especially against I4. Raptors carry Frag Grenades as well.

This is a pretty cool thread. You could even make an article out of these.

Agreed, these threads are excellent.

Bile: S10 A2 CSM Champs for 58 pts (with Power Fists and a 6 enhanced roll). Give that man an Icon of Khorne! (pure Theoryhammer)

Spawn: I use them a lot. (I also lose a lot...) Surprisingly survivable due to T5 W3, they are the destroyer of light infantry as mentioned above, but sad at destroying anything with decent armor saves. Charge range can be disturbingly large (24" with perfect rolling, 1.5% chance--good luck).

I would take two Spawn in 2000 I think. Certainly in larger games. Note the disadvantage is that if they are easier to score wounds on you could actually lose combat because of them.

Groz:

You multiply the basic Strength of the model before adding the Enhanced Warrior bonus, so the Champion would be S9 with a Power Fist.

Nurglitch wrote:Groz: You multiply the basic Strength of the model before adding the Enhanced Warrior bonus, so the Champion would be S9 with a Power Fist.

I agree with your game mechanics, and my phrase was clumsily worded. I included a reference to a "6 enhanced roll", intending to mean a roll of 6 on the Enhanced Warrior Table, resulting in "Created a Monster" for the CSM unit in question. With this outcome, the CSM Champ with Power Fist will have Strength = (4 x 2) + 2 = 10S.

I was under the impression that the enhanced strength of 5 would make his power fist S10.

S5 x2 = 10, not S4 x2 +1 =9.

Maybe i read the entry wrong.



GMort.

I would certainly be happy to give the Bile army a try in campaign or league play. He's obviously fluffy - so everyone will be happy with the choice. And in addition he gives you an entire army of S5 troops, which is nothing to sneeze at.

I'd like to experiment with the various Icons to see what works best, but I do like the idea of the Slaanesh Icon for cheap but fast and the Nurgle Icon for expensive but powerful.

The addition of Fearless with the enhancement should not be underestimated.

I have entertained the thought of a bile army. I have the model but just haven't painted or used him yet, Don't forget his churgen or whatever it is called not only increases his strenght but I believe it also gives him feel no pain.

Personally I think the enhanced chaos marines are a little better than cult marines due to the customisation with icons and ability to take different weapon upgrades. Of course he (or the enhanced csm) are not game breakers in thier self, it like so many other builds depends on how they are used and supported by the rest of the army list. It's worth play testing at the very least.

I think you would use it as a player's choice army. The conversion possibilities are endless.

Personally I would make the center point a landraider. Consider the possabity of 1" plastic tubes that you put CSM models in and fill up with color epoxy resin. Then put a tua drone bit on the top to make it a classic sci fi humanoid in a jar look. Then you could have Some guys breaking out of th etube others just look wet with shards on the base.

The land raider could be a SM sized test tube holder so you could display the marines on the out side.

Anyway, you probably want to run a Greater daemon as it could be a unstable mutation.

Lesser daemons could be clan necromunda delaque minis with white lab coats.

I envision a list of a land raider with a mini enhanced CSM squad. They have an icon and a naked aspire.

The aspire launches the great daemon, the icon summons off the hull of the land riader, and the mini squad stays inside and make the landraider scoring. The characters used the landriader as a ride. Once you summon deamons they can jump out an attach to the squad. They are probably best served there.

Also, units like Oblits could be models that look very mutated and Fabius Bile.

you probably need too other squad of enhanced warriors in rhinos.

Overall at 1850 you could fit something like this:

Fabius Bile
Lash sorcerer, with warptime
Greater daemon
Landraider
20 lesser daemons
2 X 10 CSMs with Fabious upgrade, power fist, melta guns, rhinos w. extra armor
2 X 2 Obliterators

You could win tournies with that list and also pick up a lot of points in painting and players choice if you did it right.

It's not a bad stealth comp list.

Pete

Along the above conversion line, you could even model some of your CSMs with Catachan "Rambo" arms instead of the regular CSM arms.