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Many people at my FLGS don't see the point of taking powerfists in a Tac squad/Boyz mob/etc. 'Fire anti-tank at big targets' they say. I can't convince them, so can I get some material to show them?

On many occasions, they're quite right. There's no point in wasting points on anti-tank weapons in a squad when you have dedicated anti-tank units in your army. Likewise, it's a good idea to spend points on anti-tank weapons in a squad when you don't have dedicated anti-tank units in your army.

It depends on your strategy, so long as your strategy considers three characteristics of units in your army:

1. Synergy
Does the unit increase the effectiveness or efficiency of other units in your army? Do models in the unit work together to enhance the unit beyond the sum of its parts?

2. Redundancy
If the unit is neutralized, either by being destroyed, broken, pinned, or having its operative models killed, will your army still have the ability to do whatever it is that the unit did?

3. Flexibility
If other units in the army are neutralized, can the remaining units take up the slack, or will you be giving up some vital ability to affect the game? Similarly, if other models in the unit are neutralized, can the remaining models in the unit still do its job to some degree?

Since some of one's army strategy is shoe-horning material into a points budget, it should come as no surprise that each of these characteristics will compete for points when you are selecting units. Some units will not face this competition because they blend these characteristics together. The Avatar, for example, has synergy with one's army, can effectively fight at range and close combat, and can engage all types of units effectively, if not always efficiently.

In 4th edition the Power Fist was considered a 'no-brainer' because despite the deficiency conferred by hitting at I1, it carried the same number of attacks as any other single-handed power weapon, and usually twice the strength. Its addition to a unit made that unit flexible, built redundancy into the army, and complemented a unit's ability to engage soft targets like Guard and Termagants with the ability to take on hard targets like Space Marines and Monstrous Creatures.

Now that the Power Fist has gone up in points, mostly, and has a better defined role to make a Power Fist rather than a Power Weapon ++, it's easier to see how relying on it as anti-tank and anti-monster is missing the point that such redundancy and flexibility is bought at the cost of synergy.

The synergy that dedicated anti-tank units bring to the game should be easily recognized: if anti-tank units deal with hard targets and anti-infantry units deal with soft targets, they will do so more efficiently. Moving an anti-infantry unit to bring its Power Fist to bare on a unit will be a waste if there is an anti-tank unit that can do the job more effectively and efficiently.

Notice the talk about efficiency, as the efficiency of various units will change as the mission and size of the game changes. A Power Fist will be more efficient in smaller games because there will not be as many points available for the specializations of anti-tank and anti-infantry units, and doing so will be costly in terms of redundancy: a small army composed of one specialized unit each will be fragile, or brittle as I like to say.

Well what happens if said targets get into HtH with you? Then a Powerfist is a necessity. Sure it doesnt confer an extra attack but Orks dont get much of a power weapon option, Marine sgts and CSM champions dont have access to S5 Powerweapons, and well guard Lieutenants and Characters are too fragile for Powerfists.

Powerfists are still better than power weapons because they still do the same things they did pre-5th, just with one less attack.

They still insta-kill most characters
They still insta-kill most multi-wound models
They still deal with vehicles better than grenades
They still deal with high toughness models that PW can't scratch

And lastly

They still kill more models in a single round of combat than a PW

And while they are 10 points higher

They scale better meaning the more attacks you get, the less the points matter

2 attacks = 30 vs 20 points per kill for a PW
3 attacks = 20 vs 15 points per kill for a PW
4 attacks = 15 vs 12 points per kill for a P

Getting locked in combat with wraithlords made me add them.

But now with combat tactics, getting locked in combat with something that you can't hurt is less of a concern.

I really have a tough time putting a powerfist in my squads when they have a good chance of falling back and leaving the target open to be shot in my shooting phase. Especially with the reduction in number of attacks and the points cost increase.

Power fists are Dreadnought insurance. Each Tactical squad should have one.

it really depends on the army list, if you have a mob of nobz all with power klaws/mega armoured nobz and 2 warbike warbosses with them then you may want to, spend the points else where, on more lootas as everyone seems to take buckets of them [burnas are so much cooler and are better for me YMMV]

For my particular army they are essential, the last thing i need is a squad of khorne berzerkers stuck in combat with a dreadnought/wraithlord/Carnifex for a whole game because i cant hurt the damn thing.

Also with Ironclad Dreadnoughts and Soul Grinders (both armour 13 walkers) the power fist becomes even more often a necessity.



GMort.

I dont think powerfists are totally mandatory. So long as some unit have them others can do without.

However as vet sgts are now mandatory I will now give every sgt (except a devastator) either a power fist or power sword as default, and go 50/50 split with my tacticals.

I also out of convenience run combat squads and team flamers with power swords and meltas with power fists.

Yes power swords are of limited value against many opponents, orks come immediately to mind, but my tacticals are one list fits all and I prefer it that way..

I combat squad so often that a Powerfist is almost useless.

In my experience it's much more useful to have dedicated counterassault units that are intended to be good at killing big stuff than to dump points into everyone, regardless of their role, in an attempt to make them kind of decent at it.

although powerfists are very good, they are not an auto-include on everything. they need to be on things that are likely to get into combat at some point. they are fantastic in ork mobs, assault marines, bikers and plague marines. they can be in tactials if you intend to use the tactical aggressively or combat squad (although this is dangerous because wound allocation can easily snipe and expensive sgt out of a small combat squad).

thehod wrote: Well what happens if said targets get into HtH with you? Then a Powerfist is a necessity. Sure it doesnt confer an extra attack but Orks dont get much of a power weapon option, Marine sgts and CSM champions dont have access to S5 Powerweapons, and well guard Lieutenants and Characters are too fragile for Powerfists.

The powerfist saved my bacon this last week. I was playing a 1000 point campaign battle against 'Nids. in the first few turns I concentrated fire on his stealers, gaunts and his dakkafex and hoped his CC Hive tyrant and 2 guard wouldn't make it to my objective (capture and control mission). I did fire a couple of plasma cannon shots at the tyrant from my venerable dread the first few turns but basically ignored him outside of that. Well needless to say the tyrant rolled in on my right flank. I moved my 5 man combat squad back knowing I was going to get charged. but.. the assault was going to bring his tyrant and guard within assault range of my captain (using Kantor's rules).

The tyrant wiped out my 5 man squad and knowing that if I couldn't slow the tyrant down I was doomed as he would be within assault range of the objective as well as it being turn 4, I was in deep crap. So I assaulted my captain and took one wound and proceeded to hit on 4 pwerfist attacks and they all wounded. (his guard all had one wound left and Tyrant 2 wounds prior to combat with my captain). 4 wounds - his tyrant and guard dead. whewww.

My five man sternguard proceeded then to shoot 3 ravenors off of my objective the next turn to take a draw. Those hellfire rounds are the bomb.