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Played a game over the weekend and came into two conflict of rules with the old Space Wolf codex.

Both have to do with counterattack.

First problem, when Grey Hunters which use counterattack but are armed with bolters do they get both the bonus for Truegrit and Counterattack if they pass the leadership test? Since you can't assault and get the bonus for truegrit but they're not assaulting so could you get 3 attacks instead of the 2 you normally would get with truegrit or just counterattack?

Secondly my Grey Hunters were charged by Plague Marines with blight grenades (defensive). Since counterattack is +1A similarly if they had assaulted is that counteracted by the Plague Marine Blight Grenades?

Thanks for the thoughts in advance.

1. From the space wolves codex "Models that counter-attack do not recieve the +1 attack bonus for charging"

Also I don't know what leadership test you refer to, you don't need to take one to counter attack.

2. see 1

edit: I see now, you are using the USR instead of the space wolves counter-attack, but I'm pretty sure that's incorrect unless it's been FAQ'd otherwhise, if you are meant to use the USR it would be 1. No, counter-attack says you gain the bonus attack "exactly as if they had assaulted" which includes not overlapping with true grit. Number 2 is a bit more strange but I think that it's the same again, no bonus attack.

Yeah you don't need to take any leadership test when counter-attacking. The true grit attack bonus is inherent. Its ment to be that with a bolter it wont matter if you charge or not, that your going to have 2 attacks. This makes them tough as nails sicne they can sit and shoot you, and not worry about losing the bonus for charging you. The only way you get an assult bonus when counter-attacking is if you have a wolf pelt on them, and that's only if you can give them that peice of wargear. As for the blight grenades. All you have to do is ask yourself did you charge? You can only charge in your assult phase. Id say it's impossible to lose that +1 attack from true grit sicne its not a charge bonus, it's for having 2 ccw's. Now i would see the blight grenades taking away the attack bonus from a wolf pelt since it counts the model as charging.

Wow, those are some pretty confused replies there.

edit: I see now, you are using the USR instead of the space wolves counter-attack, but I'm pretty sure that's incorrect unless it's been FAQ'd otherwhise, if you are meant to use the USR it would be 1. No, counter-attack says you gain the bonus attack "exactly as if they had assaulted" which includes not overlapping with true grit. Number 2 is a bit more strange but I think that it's the same again, no bonus attack.

Yeah, it's been FAQed. Always a good idea to check these before asking/answering a rules question.

Yeah you don't need to take any leadership test when counter-attacking. The true grit attack bonus is inherent. Its ment to be that with a bolter it wont matter if you charge or not, that your going to have 2 attacks. This makes them tough as nails sicne they can sit and shoot you, and not worry about losing the bonus for charging you. The only way you get an assult bonus when counter-attacking is if you have a wolf pelt on them, and that's only if you can give them that peice of wargear. As for the blight grenades. All you have to do is ask yourself did you charge? You can only charge in your assult phase. Id say it's impossible to lose that +1 attack from true grit sicne its not a charge bonus, it's for having 2 ccw's. Now i would see the blight grenades taking away the attack bonus from a wolf pelt since it counts the model as charging.

I don't think you answered his question at all.

True Grit states you don't get the bonus attack from charging. Counterattack states you get an extra attack exactly as if charging. It would seem that True Grit cancels the Counterattack effect out completely.

Defensive grenades (like Blight Grenades) are a little less clear, but I'd follow the same precedent as above: that is, if it cancels out the extra attack from charging, it cancels out the extra attack from Counterattack.

That's just how I'd play it, though the wording is a little bit confusing.

Cheexsta wrote:

edit: I see now, you are using the USR instead of the space wolves counter-attack, but I'm pretty sure that's incorrect unless it's been FAQ'd otherwhise, if you are meant to use the USR it would be 1. No, counter-attack says you gain the bonus attack "exactly as if they had assaulted" which includes not overlapping with true grit. Number 2 is a bit more strange but I think that it's the same again, no bonus attack.

Yeah, it's been FAQed. Always a good idea to check these before asking/answering a rules question.

It's equally a good idea to post all relevant rules information with your question so that people don't have to go through the games workshop site to find a FAQ for an army they don't play to try and help with a rules clarification.

Sure it doesn't hurt to know the FAQs, but it doesn't hurt to include the relevant info either.

Cheexsta wrote:Wow, those are some pretty confused replies there.

edit: I see now, you are using the USR instead of the space wolves counter-attack, but I'm pretty sure that's incorrect unless it's been FAQ'd otherwhise, if you are meant to use the USR it would be 1. No, counter-attack says you gain the bonus attack "exactly as if they had assaulted" which includes not overlapping with true grit. Number 2 is a bit more strange but I think that it's the same again, no bonus attack.

Yeah, it's been FAQed. Always a good idea to check these before asking/answering a rules question.

Yeah you don't need to take any leadership test when counter-attacking. The true grit attack bonus is inherent. Its ment to be that with a bolter it wont matter if you charge or not, that your going to have 2 attacks. This makes them tough as nails sicne they can sit and shoot you, and not worry about losing the bonus for charging you. The only way you get an assult bonus when counter-attacking is if you have a wolf pelt on them, and that's only if you can give them that peice of wargear. As for the blight grenades. All you have to do is ask yourself did you charge? You can only charge in your assult phase. Id say it's impossible to lose that +1 attack from true grit sicne its not a charge bonus, it's for having 2 ccw's. Now i would see the blight grenades taking away the attack bonus from a wolf pelt since it counts the model as charging.

I don't think you answered his question at all.

True Grit states you don't get the bonus attack from charging. Counterattack states you get an extra attack exactly as if charging. It would seem that True Grit cancels the Counterattack effect out completely.

Defensive grenades (like Blight Grenades) are a little less clear, but I'd follow the same precedent as above: that is, if it cancels out the extra attack from charging, it cancels out the extra attack from Counterattack.

That's just how I'd play it, though the wording is a little bit confusing.

Didn't have the time to put in all the rules but here goes for others who may or may not have a say.

True Grit (p. 4 SW Codex) - Bolters have a 'pistol grip' which means they can be fired with a single hand. This takes considerable practice and skilla nd is not normally encouraged. Units noted as having the 'True Grit' skill in the army list, however, have learnt how to use their bolters in this manner. In game terms, this means that they may count their bolter as a bolt pistol in close combat and will therefore be allowed to roll an extra Attack dice if they have been equipped with a second pistol or close combat weapon. However, a model using their bolter in this manner may not receive the attack bonus for charging, as a bolter is too unwield to be fired with one hand while simultaneously hurling yourself at the enemy.

Counter-Attack (Per SW Errata use USR from 5th edition rulebook) - Troops with this skill believe that attack is always the best form of defense. If assaulted, they will spring forward themselves and ferociously counter-attack the charging enemy. To represent this, when a unit with this rule is assaulted by the enemy it must take a Leadership test. If the test is successful all models in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn. This rule cannot be used if, when assaulted, the unit was already locked in combat from a previous turn.

Defensive Grenades - Models assaulting against units equipped with defensive grenades gain no Assault Bonus attacks.

Yeah after reading RAR it seems I get screwed if I pass the counter-attack leadership test when assaulted by models with defensive grenades. So frankly I would rather fail my counterattack test so I get 2 attacks each with True Grit than passing and only getting 1 attack. Maybe they should FAQ defensive grenades can only be used when you are not assaulting yourself?

Thanks for the help.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:

edit: I see now, you are using the USR instead of the space wolves counter-attack, but I'm pretty sure that's incorrect unless it's been FAQ'd otherwhise, if you are meant to use the USR it would be 1. No, counter-attack says you gain the bonus attack "exactly as if they had assaulted" which includes not overlapping with true grit. Number 2 is a bit more strange but I think that it's the same again, no bonus attack.

Yeah, it's been FAQed. Always a good idea to check these before asking/answering a rules question.

It's equally a good idea to post all relevant rules information with your question so that people don't have to go through the games workshop site to find a FAQ for an army they don't play to try and help with a rules clarification.

Sure it doesn't hurt to know the FAQs, but it doesn't hurt to include the relevant info either.

So if a post doesn't have all the info and you don't want to double check something for an army you evidently aren't interested in, then why bother replying? Besides, my comment was aimed equally at your post as well as the OP.

Yeah after reading RAR it seems I get screwed if I pass the counter-attack leadership test when assaulted by models with defensive grenades. So frankly I would rather fail my counterattack test so I get 2 attacks each with True Grit than passing and only getting 1 attack. Maybe they should FAQ defensive grenades can only be used when you are not assaulting yourself?

I think you've mixed something up here. You always get the +1 attack for two single-handed weapons because of True Grit, you don't suddenly lose that just because you Counterattacked; you only lose the +1 attack for charging.

In short, Grey Hunters with Bolters always have 2 attacks, unless facing something that cancels out the two CCW bonus (Lash Whips etc). In practice, there's no point in rolling the Ld check for Counterassault then unless you have models in the unit that don't have bolters.

Cheexsta wrote:

Yeah after reading RAR it seems I get screwed if I pass the counter-attack leadership test when assaulted by models with defensive grenades. So frankly I would rather fail my counterattack test so I get 2 attacks each with True Grit than passing and only getting 1 attack. Maybe they should FAQ defensive grenades can only be used when you are not assaulting yourself?

I think you've mixed something up here. You always get the +1 attack for two single-handed weapons because of True Grit, you don't suddenly lose that just because you Counterattacked; you only lose the +1 attack for charging.

In short, Grey Hunters with Bolters always have 2 attacks, unless facing something that cancels out the two CCW bonus (Lash Whips etc). In practice, there's no point in rolling the Ld check for Counterassault then unless you have models in the unit that don't have bolters.

See but if you add both rules in together look at it like this.

1. Grey Hunter squad is assaulted by Plague Marines (with defensive grenades)
2. Grey Hunter squad passes leadership test, counts as assaulting removing bonus of True Grit but still 2 attacks
3. Since counted as charging remove the bonus attacks for assaulting, down to 1 attack.

So it would be better for me to fail the leadership test and not count as assaulting and still get the True Grit bonus since the squad wouldn't count as assaulting.

no Virus you misunderstand, the Assault Bonus Attacks, are the attack bonuses gained from the act of assaulting. You would still be entitled to the +1 attack that True Grit offers from having a bolter + ccw.

"Assault Bonus" in this case is a very specific phrase and it says "(see opposite)" to help indicate this. Basically any SW models with True grit and a bolter/ccw will always have +1 attack in close combat, no more or less unless extra wargear comes into the mix.

edit:

So if a post doesn't have all the info and you don't want to double check something for an army you evidently aren't interested in, then why bother replying? Besides, my comment was aimed equally at your post as well as the OP.

Because I don't think it's a good idea for only people who play an army to decide how that armies rules works? I realised what the case might have been and adjusted for it, and admittedly the OPs question isn't such a bad example, but I get a bit weary of people posting thier question without even explaining fully where they see the clash in rules or some confusing phrase.

The problem I how I see it though is you do not get the True Grit bonus if you are assaulting. Counterattack counts as if the unit is assaulting. Thus if you counterattack your treated as if assaulting and do not get the True Grit bonus, however since your counted as assaulting a unit with defensive grenades they remove your "Assault Bonus" attack from counter-assault, thus giving you only 1 attack if you successfully pass your leadership test for counter-attack.

well you are wrong, it says it right there in the true grit rules "However, a model using their bolter in this manner may not receive the attack bonus for charging, as a bolter is too unwield to be fired with one hand while simultaneously hurling yourself at the enemy."

You don't lose the true grit attack for charging, you miss out on the charge bonus for using true grit.

Heres a question. Do blood claws receive 2 attacks when they counter attack?

Sorry Drunk I was thinking you just didn't get True Grit when assaulting where you always get it. Makes it a bit clearer, but whats makes no difference if I counterattack or not with Grey Hunters Equipped with Bolters.

Concerning Blood Claws their rule reads as follows.

Berserk Charge: Blood Claws are famed for delivering ferocious charges. They receive a bonus of +2 attacks when they charge, rather than only +1 attack as is normally the case. Note that this rule only applies to Blood Claws, not to Wolf Guard Leaders or characters that have joined the pack.

If they pass the Counter-attack leadership test and are treated "exactly if they had assaulted that turn" do they get to use the Berserk Charge special rule or just counter-attack? If they're treated exactly as if they assaulted then I'd say +2 attacks when they pull off a counter-attack.