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If a terminator is unfortunate enough to get hit by a S8 rokkit (with his T4), does he take a 2+ armor save or a 5+ invulnerable save...

in other words... If a model is hit with an attack that would be double his toughness or more, can he take an armor save or is his only defense a cover save and/or a Invulnerable save?

(this is the deciding factor for me to stuff more Kannons in my 750 point army)

The Rokkit's AP (3) doesn't bypass his Armour (2+), so he gets a save. Unless otherwise noted, the Strength characteristic of a weapon doesn't affect armour saves.

Instant Death doesn't affect whether a model gets a saving throw or not, although if a weapon causes Instant Death it will also deny Feel No Pain (which, somehow or other, isn't a saving throw).

So if a Terminator gets hit by a Rokkit, S8 AP3, it could take either its Armour Saving Throw of 2+ or its Invulnerable Saving Throw of 5+, or whatever cover save it might claim. If the save fails, Instant Death ensues.

so... Lootas are better against terminators than kannons?

Pretty much. It's easier to exploit a weak spot when you're firing a hail of large-calibre shells rather than a single rocket that's hard to aim.

Or something like that.

instant death really only effects multiple wound models

Yes, ID only really does anything against multi-wound models.

But some gamers never open their rulebook or even own one, they just play as their friends and friends of a friend do. "Instant Death" is one of those that often come up in the beginner's section. It's instant, right? Makes sense that you're dead if it hit. Some don't even roll to wound first.

Instant death also ignores FNP as Nurglitch said so i does indeed affect one wound models.

I thought this was straight forward in the Rulebook, ah well
A weapon with a weapon strength double that of the targets toughness will instant kill a model it wounds
The model does not get a normal save against instant kill
If the model has a Inv save, it is able to use that instead
If the model has a coversave, it is able to use that instead
If you have a choice of both then you may use whichever is the best out of the two available(but not the normal save which has already been negated)

To answer the original poster, the termies would only get their inv save against instant kill.

And yes, as stated in the rules, FNP cannot be used against instant kill and instant wound weapon (like a power weapon)

hellsguardian316 wrote:I thought this was straight forward

I thought so, too.

hellsguardian316 wrote:The model does not get a save against instant kill

They do, actually. The Instant Death rule does not deny armour saves in any fashion.

hellsguardian316 wrote:To answer the original poster, the termies would only get their inv save against instant kill.

Again, you're mistaken. Look over the rule again (page 26).

It is a common misunderstanding that instant death would ignore saves. When I played the few first games of 40k, I too did not allow armour save when I insta-killed something. I guess it happens because high strength weapons are usually ap1-3

I don't see how its common, as I have never heard that before now in all my years of playing.

I think it is pretty clear. High S weapons are frequently AP 2 or 3, so usually it is the case. However there are high S weapons with no or a high AP. You get a normal save if the AP doesn't say otherwise.

As they said.

You might be getting confused with 'Killing Blow' from Fantasy, against which only Ward Saves are any use.

InquisitorFabius wrote:I don't see how its common, as I have never heard that before now in all my years of playing.

Agreed!

Will double check the new rulebook in case the rules have been changed and I missed it. But for the last five years that how myself, my usual opponents and every other gamer I played has played it.

prolly only the ones you played.

InquisitorFabius wrote:I don't see how its common, as I have never heard that before now in all my years of playing.

About three of us has made this insta-death mistake when we began to play the game in our gaming group. It is not any interpretation of a rule. It just that beginners don't know the rules. So I thought it would be common, at least among people whose first language isn't English.

I will admit that I used to play that any double str weapon would ignore an armor save, but upon reading the rule book a while back I learned that they do in fact still get their normal armor saves. The rule book states that if they take an unsaved wound then they are affected by instant death, but no where does it say that instant death ignores saves.

Have read the passage and conceed my mistake, guess thats what happens when all your double strength weapons are AP1 and AP2 and you play them 5years lol
My bad guys, sorry.

Zaephyr wrote:It just that beginners don't know the rules.

I don't appreciate being labelled a Beginner just because I got a rule wrong, you don't even know me or how often I play so don't make assumptions.

hellsguardian316 wrote:
Will double check the new rulebook in case the rules have been changed and I missed it. But for the last five years that how myself, my usual opponents and every other gamer I played has played it.

Good to check the rulebook, but there is no change. The rules were the same in 4E.

A S10 venom cannon shot (ap4) still lets marines make their save. Does in 5E, did in 4E.

hellsguardian316 wrote:Have read the passage and conceed my mistake, guess thats what happens when all your double strength weapons are AP1 and AP2 and you play them 5years lol
My bad guys, sorry.

Zaephyr wrote:It just that beginners don't know the rules.

I don't appreciate being labelled a Beginner just because I got a rule wrong, you don't even know me or how often I play so don't make assumptions.

No, I didn't label you as a beginner. With the word beginner I mean a person who hasn't played more than just a couple of games. So usually a beginner doesn't know all the rules. When a veteran forgets a rule, misreads one rule or rules change, it doesn't mean that he becomes a beginner. I was just talking about myself when I took up 40k.

I hope you understand.

Zaephyr wrote:I hope you understand.

As do I. ID is one of the most common things to cause "think-about" in people on the local boards I frequent. People often think you don't get normal saves and many also think you don't have to roll for wounding.

And in addition... asking about rules means you think about them. It's not a bad thing.

Ah, I read your post differently, so sorry for flying off the handle

No one ever questioned me when I used the rule incorrrectly (they must have assumed i was correct) so I never knew I was doing it wrong and thought that was how the rule worked. Thankfully because of the types of instant death weapons me and my opponents use with AP1 and 2 it never came up and won't have affected the games I've played. But will be telling them all next time we game.

At least I can take that with me from this topic, I hate playing rules wrong so I'm glad to find out about this so that I can play it correctly next time

wow this was fast... thanks for the page # and the answer, seeing how this question has not came up for some people. I am glad I asked it.

coredump wrote:

hellsguardian316 wrote:
Will double check the new rulebook in case the rules have been changed and I missed it. But for the last five years that how myself, my usual opponents and every other gamer I played has played it.

Good to check the rulebook, but there is no change. The rules were the same in 4E.

A S10 venom cannon shot (ap4) still lets marines make their save. Does in 5E, did in 4E.

And in 3rd... in fact, as long as the instant death rule has existed, it has never meant that models lose their save simply because they were hit by a double-str weapon. A lot of people somehow separately created that extra assumption out of thin air. If anything, this is a good lesson on how people do not read what is written, but often read what they want to read, and then do not doublecheck or change their understanding on later reading. Sort of a commentary on human nature.