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Can a unit of last chancers outflank with their Chimera?

If the last chancers have infiltrate and the chimeras are their dedicated transport than yes.... I say this because I know nothing about IG but those are the rules either way.

Yep they can, as they've both infiltrate and deep strike rules ... but i wouldn't build any lists unless you all ready have the models ... i some how can't see GW leaving these guys alone when the new codex comes out in january (but who knows they might become uber hard core)

Yup. Though bear in mind if you do it, they have to enter the table IN the transport, and thus won't be able to assault that turn.

That's fine. I wouldn't want them to assault. It's worth it just to get them closer with their special weapons and blow up something special.

I just realized how flexible they are, you can have up to 5 sub units, but you don't have to decide how to split them until the start of the game. Take a few chimeras and outflank with them, infiltrate the rest or deep strike. If you take more then 16, they count as troops, so they are scoring units as well.

You can also do this with Stormtroopers that buy infiltrate and a chimera can't you? Same thing with Hardened Vets with Chimeras.

Capt K

oh they are great you can even use them to fill up your troops in a mec army... just don't ask if they are troop or HQ (think they might be both)

"... not mounted in a Chimera may Infiltrate."

I do not know how that works with the updated rules, say from the main rule book.

All that is required to outflank with a transport is for the unit that you bought the transport for to have the infiltrate special rule. The description for infiltrate is basically the same between the IG codex and the USR.

IG Codex: Any sub unit not mounted in a chimera may infiltrate if the mission permits it.

Infiltrate USR last paragraph: If a unit with this ability is deployed inside a transport vehicle, it cannot infiltrate.

Outflank: ... players may declare that units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy... if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport.

Beside, just because the unit mounted in a chimera may not infiltrate, that does not change the fact that the unit sill have the infiltrate special rule, which is all that is required for outflank.

CaptKaruthors wrote:You can also do this with Stormtroopers that buy infiltrate and a chimera can't you? Same thing with Hardened Vets with Chimeras.

Capt K

Yes, but when you take over 16 last chancers they count as 1 HQ and 2 troop choices, which not only meets the FOC requirements, but also should make each individual sub unit a scoring unit. However the codex never explicitly define what part of the last chancers count towards the troop choices, and what counts toward the HQ. One would assume that Schaffer is a HQ, and the last chancers are all troops, but how do you count Kage? Another HQ? Unit leader? Elite?

yes, but the Last Chancers Infiltrate rule says "... not mounted in a Chimera may Infiltrate."

How's that any different than the USR?

I know where Will is going. The Last Chancers entry does not have anything saying that they possess a USR called "Infiltrate", merely that they can infiltrate if they don't have a transport. It's quibbling, but some believe that if they have a transport, they don't have their version of USR "Infiltrate".

Ooh.. I had forgotten about this. Crud. If the unit states that when equipped with a transport, it cannot Infiltrate, it would also lose the option to Outflank. A couple of the older codices put restrictions on Infiltrate like this.

Hardened Vets seem like they have Infiltrate as a special rule in their entry. Although, if they take a transport they may not infiltrate...but they don't lose the Special Rule in their entry...so it seems they would be able to Outflank. The IG codex is gimped enough currently...if an IG player wanted to Outflank...I'd let them.

Capt K

Oh, I think they can Outflank, but I see where the argument comes from. Soon, soon, all will be well (I hope) when we get a new codex.

Bottom line is that Codex trumps BGB.
If it says they can't infiltrate if in a Chimera, then that's the case, unless a FAQ says otherwise (which I doubt).

It's unfortunate, but it's the RAW.

Eric

RAW outflank does not require the USR, it requires the infiltrate special rule. Last Chancers has a special rule called infiltrate. So by RAW they can outflank. As described in the outflank rule you can do so in a transport.

So the answer to the original question is:
Yes, the Last Chancers can outflank while mounted in a Chimera.

Edit: Hardened Veterans do not have a special rule called infiltrate so may of course not outflank at all, Chimera or no Chimera.

Yet hardened vets can Infiltrate, if they don't ahve a transport........................

Yeah, its messed up, vet can infiltrate if not mounted in a transport, but as soon as they have a transport they can no longer infiltrate, so they can not outflank with a chimera.

Last chancers still retain the infiltrate special rule even if bought with a chimera.

The difference is that the special rule vets have is infiltrators, which is not the same as the infiltrate USR. Last chancer have the infiltrate special rule, it is unclear if that is the same as the infiltrate USR, but if you read the discription it is very similar to the infiltrate USR, and for the purpose of out flank, it meets the requirement for having the infiltrate special rule.

Has anyone given thought to how the units are counted? What counts as the HQ and what counts as the Troops?

simple answer less 8 total they're a HQ unit ... if more then 8 they're HQ and troop unit (theres nothing in the rules stoping them from being both)

Yeah, the entire selection constitutes units coming from your troops allowance making the entire selection a valid scoring unit, I don't particularly know how they are split but going off what I have read here and the core rules that's the only valid interpretation I can see

Ok is simple if it says the in the codex they cant outflank in a chimera then they cant. I know other imp G units most likely can . I myself only outflank my sentinels but that's beside the point. Codex's trump rule book.

Emrab wrote:Ok is simple if it says the in the codex they cant outflank in a chimera then they cant. I know other imp G units most likely can . I myself only outflank my sentinels but that's beside the point. Codex's trump rule book.

Of course, how silly of me.
Too bad that Outflank didn't exist when the current IG codex was written back in 3rd edition so that we could reference how the Outflank rule would affect IG units 9 years down the road. Codex never menitions Outflank at all, of course. So it doesn't say one way or the other.
The codex says they cannot Ifiltrate if they have a transport:
Does that mean that they do not have the Infiltrate USR at all and only have some special codex version of Infiltrate, and then only have it when they don't have a transport?
OR
Does that mean they only have the Infiltrate USR if they don't buy a transport?
OR
Does that mean they have the Infiltrate USR and just can't use it if they buy a transport?
OR
Enter your own hypotheses here...................

i vote wait for next codex, from the sound of it you'll be making gunlines plattons, that can shoot through themselves without giving out coversaves

1) They can't, the rule says any unit not mounted in a chimera, pretty clear on this one

2) They count as scoring, this question is specifically answered in the FAQ on GW's site. If the unit numbers 8 models are more they count as both troop and hq, making all sub units scoring.

No, the rule says any unit mounted in a Chimera cannot Infiltrate. Doesn't say a thing about Outflank. From page 54, IG Codex:
"Special Rules:"
"Infiltrate: Any sub-unit not mounted in a chimera may infiltrate if the mission permits it."

Ok, so all Last Chancers have the special rule Infiltrate that permits them to infiltrate if not mounted in a chimera. Now, mount them in a Chimera. Have they lost their special rule? No. It's still right there in their unit entry. The inability to use a rule such as Infiltrate or Scouts does not remove that rule from the unit. And all that is required to use Outflank is to have Infitrate or Scouts.
Same for Hardened Vets, IMO, as they also have a SPecial Rule, Infiltrators, that allows them to Infiltrate if not equipped with a transport. Again, giving them a transport does not remove the rule, it merely disallows their use of it for Infiltration.
Finally, Storm Troopers. Their ability to actually gain (ie purchase) the rule Infiltrate is tied to them not having a transport, so they cannot do Outflank in a transport.

Will wrote:Yeah, its messed up, vet can infiltrate if not mounted in a transport, but as soon as they have a transport they can no longer infiltrate, so they can not outflank with a chimera.

Last chancers still retain the infiltrate special rule even if bought with a chimera.

The difference is that the special rule vets have is infiltrators, which is not the same as the infiltrate USR. Last chancer have the infiltrate special rule, it is unclear if that is the same as the infiltrate USR, but if you read the discription it is very similar to the infiltrate USR, and for the purpose of out flank, it meets the requirement for having the infiltrate special rule.

Hardened vets have a rule called infiltrators, sure, but if you read the description it says "They may therefore use the Infiltrators rule if it is permitted for the mission being used" which means, either Infiltrators as a game term is synonymous with Infiltrate meaning they really do possess an infiltrate special rule, or the other option is Infiltrators isn't a real rule and they cannot infiltrate even outside of a transport. Personally I think they should be able to outflank just like the other units.

Will wrote:Has anyone given thought to how the units are counted? What counts as the HQ and what counts as the Troops?

This is a moot point, the entire selection consists of units that come from the army's troops allowance, which means the entire selection is scoring, where this need to seperate them comes from im not sure, but I see alot of people doing it when there's no reason to.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Will wrote:

Has anyone given thought to how the units are counted? What counts as the HQ and what counts as the Troops?

This is a moot point, the entire selection consists of units that come from the army's troops allowance, which means the entire selection is scoring, where this need to seperate them comes from im not sure, but I see alot of people doing it when there's no reason to.

This is talked about because you buy them as an HQ, if you take more models it counts as a troops choice as well, and even more as a second troops choice, as well. It can split into sub units, so are the two commander models (schaeffer and kage) scoring as well? Is every one of the 5 sub units scoring?

Thats the issue

Its covered in the Guard FAQ however, and states that all sub units and models bought for the last chancers, providing it meets the size to be counted as a troop choice as well, counts as scoring.