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So here's the scenario...
We have on one side, Eldrad Ulthran with his harem of banshees, full compliment and head cheese exarch. Exarch has mirror swords and both powers.
This squad is about to get charged by an ethereal going by the name of Aun'Shi and his/her retinue of badass boys. (This was at a tournament mind you).
The Exarch decides to run counter-attack on Aun'Shi's Squad of Tau pansies when I realize...Isn't Aun'Shi is from an outdated codex? Is that even Legal in a 5th ed. tournie?
I mean, despite the fact that the Eldar won the field and mopped the floor with the Tau, I couldn't help but get this nagging sensation in the back of my head that this didn't seem right.

Earlier today, I saw his squad take out 5 chaos terminators and a Chaos terminator lord with blood feeder. Firewarriors v. chaos terminators? WTF??? what are the odds.

So my Question is this: Is it legal to run models in a tournament, from outdated codices? I was always led to believe that we couldn't, mostly because Aun'Shi seems a bit off for 5th ed. rules...but I could be wrong.

Also How would one deal with Aun'Shi? And How exactly does this character work in 5th ed. According to the codex it says that it can deny attacks from all enemies attacking him. Does this mean models, or units? the Codex doesn't really specify.

Feeling kinda ed off with this whole thing, then again I could be overreacting to the whole thing. Input? anyone?
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From www.astronomican.com

So ***... I found a White Dwarf mentioning Aun'Shi and the only thing it says is that he can be used as an Ethereal...

No +1 attack and +1 initiative or the other cool stuff...

I'm afraid that I can confirm that Aun'Shi was removed from the TE codex. I think GW wanted to try and make the point that tau really suck at cc across the board, and the idea of a close combat FW squad just didn't work.

Still, he does make a very cool model.

This seems to be the general concensus across a few boards I searched the question for. He was in the original codex but was removed from the newest one. As far as I know without special rules (from the tournay commitee) or the opposing player condoning the use of an outdated character in contradiction to the new Codex he can not be used. But I could be wrong.

wat?


No but really, what?


Of course you can't use old codices?! However you could use old miniatures to represent something.
I Guess you could use aun'shi as a normal etheral. If you wanted too, even in a tournament if he is WYSIWYG

Nah, he used the Aun'Shi model as Aun'Shi, with all his special rules and everything.
which kinda cheesed me off when I first found out, I've always been led to believe that we had to use the most recent codex if we had it. PDF copies or not.

I actually asked the manager at the game store I usually get my stuff at and he says it's perfectly legal. If the new codex didn't have any new stuff for said model, that it could be used with it's special rules...
then by that same token, I could take a seer council from craftworld ulthwe? (craftworld Eldar)
Or even a court of the young king?

I have actually emailed GW on this question, still waiting for a response

No, you can't use old rules when a newer version is out. And whether you personally own one or not a Tourny should have the rules on hand so that they can make rule calls if a dispute is to arise. So they should have a copy of the newest codex available for that alone if needed. Not to mention I haven't been to any stores that hold tournys where they didn't have codex's on the shelf if you didn't have one that could be used as a refernece tool for the tourny, just in case someone forgot theirs.

But Bla_Ze is right, he could be used as a stand-in model for a vanilla ethereal if you want to make that one seem special for some reason. But same model/tourny rules apply, everything in his wargear has to be represented on the model for play.

Now if you want to play an old edition and its rules for that edition, to include the codex for that edition. (if you can still find that edition of codex) Then by all means he can be used. But if you're playing 5th Ed. and using the 5th Ed. Codex than no, he can only be used as a stand-in model with the same rules as a normal Ethereal. The manager is wrong.

The manager that you spoke is demonstrating either his ignorance or his willingness to pull your leg (or possibly cheat). Either way, I wouldn't ever go to a tourney at that store.

And if that Tau player won said tourney, you should protest it, with the cooperation of the other players that were present.

the tourney wasn't actually held at the store, it was held at the local gaming club. Not only that, but the tau player did have the latest codex on hand, just not a physical copy. he actually had both 3rd ed. and 4th ed codices(and was using stuff from both), since they haven't come out with a 5th ed for Tau yet.
He also lost that tourney, though he did make second place(not too hard when there aren't that many players in said tournament)

Next time you play him, be sure to bring your Wolfguard army, all with cyclones and assault cannons--perfectly legal in 2nd edition!

Or better yet, bring your space marines with shuriken catapults, or your imperial guard, all with grenade launcher attachments, all with vortex and rad grenades. Rogue Trader says it's okay!

I have a similar issue I have not been able to find anywhere else, the guy I play with used a 2nd Edition Avatar in the last game we played. The model is about as tall as one of my Fire Warriors. He hid him behind a piece of terrain to protect him 1st turn (the new Avatar model would have been extremely visible), then had a cover save as it was hiding in the middle of guardians for the rest of the game.

It wasn't a big deal, because I wasn't planning on shooting it anyway, and it's invulnerable save would have been the same as its cover save anyway, but it rubbed me the wrong way and made me feel violated. I may have to go to counciling. Is there a rule on this at all?

He's my buddy and probably the only one I play against, so its not like I am going to boycott playing him. But he'll probably read this so at least everyone that thinks this is stupid should chime in.

I hate you for this Solenator. See you next Tuesday... .

Old models are perfectly acceptable to use. Old models and rules are not. The mini-avatar is fine to use as is though.

syr8766 wrote:Next time you play him, be sure to bring your Wolfguard army, all with cyclones and assault cannons--perfectly legal in 2nd edition!

Or better yet, bring your space marines with shuriken catapults, or your imperial guard, all with grenade launcher attachments, all with vortex and rad grenades. Rogue Trader says it's okay!

Yay - but check out the old 1st ed points values for marines. Troops are ok (250 for 10 tac) but 450 pts for 5 termies? a 600 point predator?
And to keep your force organization legal you must take 1 space marine librarian and 1 space marine lieutenant. (huh?)

My favourite is the 320 point tac squad with 'beamer, jump packs, sergeant with vortex grenade and the whole squad with ANTI PLANT grenades! Oh yes.
Watch out plants!

No wonder vortex grenades are rare nowadays, I must've popped one every game in early 90's!

ubersnax wrote:I have a similar issue I have not been able to find anywhere else, the guy I play with used a 2nd Edition Avatar in the last game we played. The model is about as tall as one of my Fire Warriors. He hid him behind a piece of terrain to protect him 1st turn (the new Avatar model would have been extremely visible), then had a cover save as it was hiding in the middle of guardians for the rest of the game.

If it is the avatar with a spear, I do believe that is the Epic Avatar.

You can always use old models to represent something in the _current_ codex. You can not just pick and choose what rules you want. You can tell the Tau player sorry that they dumped the rules for a character, but Tau is far from the first to that have happen. (good old Asmodai and Sgt. Naamar(sp) you will be remembered).

There was an older non-epic avatar with spear and cape. I think it came out early 2nd edition.

My thoughts on this situation- find a new place to play.

Kapitan Montag wrote:

syr8766 wrote:Next time you play him, be sure to bring your Wolfguard army, all with cyclones and assault cannons--perfectly legal in 2nd edition!

Or better yet, bring your space marines with shuriken catapults, or your imperial guard, all with grenade launcher attachments, all with vortex and rad grenades. Rogue Trader says it's okay!

Yay - but check out the old 1st ed points values for marines. Troops are ok (250 for 10 tac) but 450 pts for 5 termies? a 600 point predator?
And to keep your force organization legal you must take 1 space marine librarian and 1 space marine lieutenant. (huh?)

My favourite is the 320 point tac squad with 'beamer, jump packs, sergeant with vortex grenade and the whole squad with ANTI PLANT grenades! Oh yes.
Watch out plants!

No wonder vortex grenades are rare nowadays, I must've popped one every game in early 90's!

Same here. Vortex Grenade on a Swooping Hawk Exarch: death from above!

ubersnax wrote:I have a similar issue I have not been able to find anywhere else, the guy I play with used a 2nd Edition Avatar in the last game we played. The model is about as tall as one of my Fire Warriors. He hid him behind a piece of terrain to protect him 1st turn (the new Avatar model would have been extremely visible), then had a cover save as it was hiding in the middle of guardians for the rest of the game.

It wasn't a big deal, because I wasn't planning on shooting it anyway, and it's invulnerable save would have been the same as its cover save anyway, but it rubbed me the wrong way and made me feel violated. I may have to go to counciling. Is there a rule on this at all?

He's my buddy and probably the only one I play against, so its not like I am going to boycott playing him. But he'll probably read this so at least everyone that thinks this is stupid should chime in.

I hate you for this Solenator. See you next Tuesday... .

whitedragon wrote:Old models are perfectly acceptable to use. Old models and rules are not. The mini-avatar is fine to use as is though.

What whitedragon says is correct, you can use old models as long as before the game starts you agree on the replacement of wargear (since if they've changed the weaponry or wargear options for the character in newer codex's you should know what they are, so they can't just change them mid-game to suit their needs.) As well, the rules for the new models also take effect, AFAIK the Avatar has the MC special rule which means he can't hide him behind a group of Guardians or any other troop that Eldar has for a cover save.

i have some old ig stormtroopers i got for free, but i want to find out where to find some more. the look like a mix between ghost busters and british para troopers.

Fexor, the avatar must be obscured at least 50% to claim a cover save. If the guardians make it impossible to see more than 50% of the avatar, then he indeed will get a cover save. However, his INV save is 4+, so there are very few circumstances in which he would even take a cover save over his INV save.

whitedragon, I know the rules for cover saves, what I'm saying is if you stand them on level ground, the Avatar is way to tall to be obscurred by a Guardian or even a squad of them. Now say the Avatar was coming up a mountain into view of the enemy on the other side and there was a squad of Guardians at the top obscurring his torso or head, then yes they would help give him the cover save. But what the OP was talking about, is that he was put behind a normal squad of Guardians on level ground and since that particular "old" model wasn't the correct size of the new one it gave him a cover save.

I mean thats like me using Epic sized Carnifex's with normal Gaunts and saying that the Carni is given a cover save because he's being 50% obscurred by the Gaunts, when if I was normally using the regular model for the Carni, there's no way he'd get a Cover Save.

True line of sight is true line of sight. The model is an official, albeit old, one. If 50 percent of it is obscured then it gets cover. You can model to your advantage. In this case its not even a conversion. Same thing goes for old rhinos, ork trukks, and other vehicles and MC that have gone through changes over the years. Cheese? I would say not, if I had spent money on a model to be latter told that even though the rules for it are still good, you have to play with the new more expensive one.... Well lets just say I would be looking for either a judge, or a friendlier player. Now going to E bay looking specifically for old sculpts for this purpose would be a bit beardy, but that is a ethical standard I would hold myself to not one I would impose on another player. Also the old sculpts for most things look like

notabot187 wrote:True line of sight is true line of sight. The model is an official, albeit old, one. If 50 percent of it is obscured then it gets cover. You can model to your advantage. In this case its not even a conversion. Same thing goes for old rhinos, ork trukks, and other vehicles and MC that have gone through changes over the years. Cheese? I would say not, if I had spent money on a model to be latter told that even though the rules for it are still good, you have to play with the new more expensive one.... Well lets just say I would be looking for either a judge, or a friendlier player. Now going to E bay looking specifically for old sculpts for this purpose would be a bit beardy, but that is a ethical standard I would hold myself to not one I would impose on another player. Also the old sculpts for most things look like

I understand where you're coming from notabot187, but the idea of modeling to your advantage is a slippery slope. Reason being, when does to much conversion become an unfair advantage? Who decides that? If memory serves me right, there was a post before 5th Edition launched about the new true line of sight rules and about converting a squad of chaos to give them extra long necks. Allowing the ability to see other units and there for be able to shoot them, however since the lengthier neck & head doesn't equal more then 50% of the model, that they would be behind cover and unable to be shot at.

So where do you draw line? Who makes that call? In tournaments, its easy you ask the judge.

In friendly games where its supposed to be about fun, not making your army the most rule bending/breaking thing on the table. Who makes the call then?

If its an old, old, old model, I do believe there is more a reason than "just to make it look better" or "buy more of our stuff" to them updating models. I would like to believe that they're also somewhat tied in with the new rules that are put out. And I agree, the old models don't look nearly as good as the new ones they're putting out.

I don't know, perhaps I view it as all players should want to play morally and ethically and not try and get over on their opponent on a technicality. It seems to me, that you're giving yourself an unfair advantage over your opponent, which isn't fun. Which is what the game is about, having fun.

ok I'm off my moral/ethical now.

note to self. bring doom rider just to piss people off.

theHandofGork wrote:There was an older non-epic avatar with spear and cape. I think it came out early 2nd edition.

My thoughts on this situation- find a new place to play.

sorry, that's wrong, the current only avatar (other than forgeworld) I remember it coming out just after the 2nd edition eldar codex, which was for those of you who can't remember, the 2nd ever codex. there was not a previous model

there was however an avatar with a spear in epic, who came on a standard slottabase.

If you can get away with epic models in 40k tournements I'm going to dust of my armoured company list. sure i can't take objectives but tabling someone with 12 Leman Russ who can hide behind gretchin should be pretty easy