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I really like Honour Guard but I do not know if they are just another Flash Gitz or not. Big difference, and it deserves mention of Honour Guard vs other squads is the inclusion of the Chapter Champion with his 3+1 attacks, 5 on the charge.

I think they are useful in squads of 10, or squads of 6. So here we go, Scottie/ Tacobake's ultimate Spase Marinez comparison where everyone proves him wrong.

Note that what this is about is basic wargear. Grenades, small arms etc.

Two attacks base, 2+ Save
6 Honour Guard: 220 Points + Transport. I personally like Drop Pods.
- 35 points each. Power Weapon/ Bolt Pistol, Grenades and Bolter. 2+ Save
- Good place for a Thunder Hammer. The Banner is cool.
- Other upgrades not necessary I do not think. 15 points for Grenade Launcher, you could always take a Battle Brother or a Razorback someplace.
- Do not take up a FoC.
- Ld 10, unlike other veteran units which are Ld9.

10 Honour Guard: 360 points.
- A couple Relic Blades are not the end of the world, useful against T3/T5/T6.

6 Terminators: 240 Points. Transport optional, especially for Tactical Termies
- 40 points each. Tactical Sergeant has that stupid Power Sword. No Grenades.
- 5++

8 Assault Terminators: 320 points.
10 Assault Terminators: 400 points.
- Good bodyguard for something like Marneus Calgar or you can tuck a Chaplain inside. Good squad in general, hard hitting with some 3++.

10 Honour Guard with a Thunder Hammer and two Relic Blades is 390 points. 10 Assault Terminators with the option of TH/SS is 400 points. Assault Terminators are more resilient, but Honour Guard come with Bolters and Grenades. Thing is hard targets will have their own Power Weapons, so you probably are just as well off with Assault Terminators.

10 Tactical Terminators: 595 points.
- This is two squads. One 5-man Shooty/ Assault and one 5-man Shooty/ Anti-Vehicle.
- They are called Tactical Terminators for a reason.

I don't know if you can really compare them, but 6 Honour Guard to 5 Tactical Termies is a good comparison. 6 Honour Guard are 250 points, 5 Tactical Termies with their 5++ and Storm Bolters are 200 points. And the Honour Guard need a Drop Pod. Honour Guard have grenades. I would say Honour Guard are still measly Flash Gits to the Tactical Termies squad of Nobz with Kombi-weapons.

Two attacks base, 3+ Save
10 Sternguard: 250 to 300 to 350 points plus Transport
- Solid, Tactical unit

Sternguard are Sternguard. Honour Guard are 220 points for 6 vs 10 Sternguard for 250. Honour Guard have Power Weapons and a 2+, Sternguard have their special ammo. If Sternguard are B+/ A- for their battlefield role, then Honour Guard are probably still B/ B-.

5 man Command Squad: 115 points base.
The Command Squad is an interesting unit, mostly because it is limited to its small size. 5 men + the Apothecary is a great deal for what you get. Add in a Drop Pod or Bikes, Company Champion, Standard and a couple Power Weapons and/ or Special Weapons and the squad is about ~225 to 265, including the Apothecary. Honour Guard are 2+, Command Squad are 3+ FNP with the option of Bikes. They both kind of suck; my advice: if you like them, take them. .

6 to 10 Legion of the Damned: 185 to 305 before upgrades. Transport not necessary. Lose a bolter and take a WS5 Power Weapon for 15 points.
- Fearless, 3++. Cool unit.

Thing with Legion of the Damned is this. They are Fearless. They also have Slow and Purposeful, which means (I believe) they can shoot their bolters the turn they charge. And their Plasma Cannon or whatever. They still have a Sergeant guy in there, so a 10 man squad still have 4 Power Weapon + Grenade (if necessary) attacks on the turn they charge. And they are Fearless. They do not have a 2+ but they have a 3++, making them nice against ... a number of targets.

6 Honour Guard with a Thunder Hammer and a Drop Pod are ... 255. You give that guy a Power Weapon, you can take 8 LotD for the same price. The LotD can take a couple anti-tank or anti-whatever weapons, too if it comes to it, eclipsing the Relic Blades.

So I would say if 6 Honour Guard are a solid unit, if tactically weak, then 6 to 8 LotD are ... more solid given their extra Tactical Ability, not limited to the fact the turn they deepstrike they get a 3++ save against incoming Demolisher and Plasma Cannons. And the LotD are Fearless.

6 to 10 Vanguard Assault Marines

I like this comparison. 6 Honour Guard with Drop Pod are 255. 6 Vanguard Marines with Jump Packs and 4 Power Weapons, including the Sergeant are 250. Vanguard win Close Combat, Honour Guard have Bolters.

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So all in all, undramatic though it may be, I would say Honour Guard are pretty much a sucky unit. For a number of battlefield roles, and given their points cost at ~250 to 300 they lose to Terminators for both Tactics and Close Combat, and they lose to Vanguard for Close Combat, given their Mobility. They lose to Legion of the Damned given LotD's superior shooting and Fearlessness. They carry bolters, but so do Tactical squads. You can give them a "Gate and Dome," or maybe just a Force Dome Librarian but now you are adding points and taking up an HQ slot. They also do not need the Librarian's Ld10, unlike say Sternguard.

But a squad of six is still viable if YOU REALLY LIKE THEM. They still have the WS5 Chapter Champion tucked in there (at 45 points), provided he does not get taken out by Boltgun fire.

I am personally going to use them (the squad of 6 with the free Thunder Hammer), but they really do lose out to other units, especially Vanguard Marines, simply because their shooting is not that great. They can of course carry the Chapter Banner.

None of these units are a jack of all trades except for the LotD. If I were to run HG I would go with all relic blades and a thunder hammer plus the banner.

G

You could take 8 with the Thunder Hammer, a Drop Pod, a Banner, and 5 Relic Blades for 425 vs 400 for 10 Assault Termies. Better against cover with a bit of shooting, but no invulnerable.

I think I personally am going to go with two squads of Legion of the Damned and a squad of Honour Guard replacing what Assault Terminators + Tactical Squads might do for the same points. Some hard hitting close combat + some mobile heavy weapons.

I've been running 5 HG with PW and BP plus banner plus Chapter Master in a Razorback.

So far they've had no worries killing things and no worries for survivability.

However, today was the first time the actually got their points back, so that's only 1 of 4 battles so far.

DFK! wrote:I've been running 5 HG with PW and BP plus banner plus Chapter Master in a Razorback.

So far they've had no worries killing things and no worries for survivability.

However, today was the first time the actually got their points back, so that's only 1 of 4 battles so far.

Really, I find honour guard rather meh. Yes they're cool, but what are you going to use them for?

They can tear through MEQs...cool? They also cost a lot more. Theyre like the shrike+squad-first-turn-assault...ya its powerful but after that it pretty much dies.

If an enemy has nothing in his army that can deal with a bunch of ridiculously expensive 2+ save CC monsters with NO invulnerable, then he doesn't know how to build an army list. Everybody these days has SOME plasma to deal with FNP, terminators, carnifexes, etc. Even vs guard, two shots hitting on 4+ wounding on 2+ is 5/6ths of a dead honour guard per turn. If he rolls lucky and hits/wounds with both he's pretty much paid for his entire squad, and still likely has more to fire against them.

True, they CAN be used effectively...but why? Why not use vanguard vets that are far more maneuverable? True they don't get 2+ saves or come auto-equipped with power weapons, but they also have an 18" charge range and can deep strike into combat. Honour guard are cool, but don't have the same kind of tactical role in your army.
Against Monsterous creatures? Cool they all get 4 attacks on the charge, 5 to the chapter champion. However, if they don't kill him before he attacks back they're going to get shredded, and likely cost a LOT more points than the MC did in the first place. Another place I'd rather have CC termies with SS+TH.
I can perhaps see them for high point games, where you're stretched for FoC and need a hard hitting squad that doesn't take up spots you want for say bikes/speeders/etc. Other than that I just don't see them as a unit that doesn't have better alternatives.

I think what you said pretty much hits the nail right there on the head. Ya they're cool, but they're rarely (if ever) going to win their points value back.

I think the best cc squad for SM is captain on a bike with command squad on bike:

Captain w. storm shield, relic blade, digi weapons, hell fire rounds
Command squad w. 2x relic blade & storm shield, power fist & storm shield, 2x meltagun, apothecary

G

You need to take out the indivial point cost against site policy.

run a unit with thunder hammers (or relic blades ... well nothing stops you from using a 2handed weapon) , (edit...could have swarn they got stom shields) and Grenade Launcher (sholder mounted) then just laught at the madness ... problaly the only unit that could kill 50 conscripts in one turn (having them running away doesn't count) (... and nether do orks ...)

IMO they suck stand alone.
They are like Grey Knight Terminators but cheaper.
Imo cover saves help them.

What they need is a Land Raider Redeemer, Librarian w/Null zone, and the one that 5+ Invulnerable or a Avenger.

Dunno what else they get like shrike and all that rubbish.

storm knight wrote:IMO they suck stand alone.
They are like Grey Knight Terminators but cheaper.
Imo cover saves help them.

What they need is a Land Raider Redeemer, Librarian w/Null zone, and the one that 5+ Invulnerable or a Avenger.

Dunno what else they get like shrike and all that rubbish.

They're not cheaper, they're more expensive. It's an extra 15 points for relic blades on the guys, meaning you're spending 4 points more per model and don't get an invul save. Not to mention you have to take a Chapter Master, who really only goes well in a static army. Why pay the extra points for the orbital strike if you're planning on having him running around to get into combat all the time.

Oh and tri, where are you seeing that they can buy storm shields? The only things they can buy are relic blades and grenade launchers, which combine to a grand total of over 60 points per model. That's a predator.

Command squads are vastly superior with their feel no pain. 3+ save and 4+ FNP is just as good as 2+ save, have more and better options, don't necessitate the rather superfluous chapter master, and are vastly more tactically flexible unit.

would any one really want these guys in a game less then say 3000Pts .....also i was take the piss slightly ... 960pts for one squad? a well should have included j/k just so ever would get it

Yeah ok
I would take a squad.
Plain (PW/BP)
Librarian the one that casts 2 a turn, Quickening, null zone, storm shield.
Chapter Master (I really don't want this guy, a chaplain would be better)
Give him, Relic Blade.

Drop Pod/LR

So what you have is. Iniative 10, they always strike first, opponents re-roll invulnerables and a ton of PW attacks.

storm knight wrote:Yeah ok
I would take a squad.
Plain (PW/BP)
Librarian the one that casts 2 a turn, Quickening, null zone, storm shield.
Chapter Master (I really don't want this guy, a chaplain would be better)
Give him, Relic Blade.

Drop Pod/LR

So what you have is. Iniative 10, they always strike first, opponents re-roll invulnerables and a ton of PW attacks.

Quickening only works on the librarian, so nobody else in the squad would benefit from the fleet or I 10. You'd be better off giving the librarian force dome to give them all 5+ invuls. Null zone is a power that only works well against certain enemies.

Also, how many points is that squad you just gave us? the librarian alone is 190, the master nearly that as well. Throw in the honour guard squad (who i'm sure is going to be bigger than the standard 3 marines) and you have a unit thats worth probably 600 points. I'd far rather have 5 CC termies with a termy chaplain in a land raider for that price. At least they get invuls that way.

For damage potential, 6 CC termies with LC have a higher damage potential than 9 HG with PW and termies cost 85pts less. I believe it is a 11 to 10 wounds per turn against MEQ. TO even the cost, add 2 more termies to 8 total and the termies go up to almost 15 wounds.
I calculate 4 Str vs 4 Tough = 4+ or 50% chance to hit.
Then With LC re-rolls, they have 75% chance to wound. the PW only has a 50% chance to wound.

Put them in a LRC with Khan (off of his bike) and a chapter master for a cool looking hard hitting unit, but as far as how the stack up point for point, i cant see them holding anything against assault termies, especially Th SS termies which are so so so much more resiliant.

These guys get owned by harlies or stealers or nob bikers, or anything similar.

They really lose out to the ability to take 3++ Storm Shields in a squad of 6 to 8 Assault Termies.