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It appears as though Eldrad is not choppy. But as I have been using him quite a bit lately I have wanted to double check. I'd love to have another attack with him. Here's my logic.

Eldrad is equipped with 3 possible 'weapons' shuriken pistol, witchblade, and staff of ulthamar

clearly the pistol and the witchblade are single handed weapons, and clearly the witchblade is a "special close combat weapon" as defined in page 42 of the BGB.

The description of the staff of ulthamar on page 51 leads me to believe that, in close combat, Eldrad uses the staff as a 'special close combat weapon'. Its ability to cast a 3rd psychic power shuts off, and it is used as a witchblade that ignores armor saves. This passage makes it sound very much like a CC weapon...

"...In combat IT always wounds on a roll of 2+ and ignores armor saves."

If the staff of ulthamar is indeed a 'special close combat weapon' than Eldrad could never be choppy, as the "two different special weapons" rule at the bottom of page 42 would kick in, the two weapons being the witchblade and the staff of ulthamar.

The only interpretation that would contradict this would be that the staff is never used as a weapon, it is a piece of wargear that lets eldrad's witchblade ignore armor saves. In which case it isn't a 'special close combat weapon' at all and Eldrad would be free to use the pistol and witchblade. Unfortunately, I think the wording in the staff's description seems to indicate that the staff is considered a weapon...

Is it a CC weapon? Is it wargear? Thanks for weighing in!

Damn, that's a good question. The codex isn't 5th-Ed-relevant, but it's not hard to see what was INTENDED. It kind of makes having a witchblade irrelevant, but the model has one, so that's probably why it's in the wargear list...

But you're right, the distinction between a piece of wargear that 'enhances' his combat abilities, and the staff as an actual weapon, makes all the difference.

In all honesty I just think it needs to be FAQ'd, like a lot of things printed pre-5th... and damned soon!

Everyone I play with says it counts as a CC weapon, ergo, +1 attack in CC with his Staff and a pistol.

whitedragon wrote:Everyone I play with says it counts as a CC weapon, ergo, +1 attack in CC with his Staff and a pistol.

Well, regardless of the claim of it being a close combat weapon being correct or not they are playing it incorrectly, the core rulebook says models with two different special close combat weapons NEVER get the bonus for two single handed weapons in melee. (bold mine)

From looking at the rules, the staff is clearly a functional close combat weapon since it has rules for being used in close combat, and is a special one because it has unique rules, as does the spear, so I would say he falls into the category of two different special weapons.

I would also say why are you getting Eldrad into fights when he gets 1 less psychic power per turn that way?

Because he has a power weapon that wounds on a 2+ perhaps?

Mine has wiped out Terminator remnants and MCs a lot!

Drunkspleen has the right of it. The staff is indeed a separate weapon, as it clearly states in the staff description. "or be use as a powerful weapon." So no +1 attack for Eldrad.

But having two 'special' weapons still doesn't mean you have to use both. He has a shuriken pistol. ALL combat weapons are 'one-handed', so that distinction never needs to be made.

The rulebook says, 'Power fists, thunder hammers and lightning claws are an exception to this. Only a second power fist, thunder hammer or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons.'

Witchblades are described above, but not mentioned in the exception. I believe that Eldrad can use three psychic powers, and if he ends up in combat on the same turn, then he has ONE basic attack, TWO for the addition of the Shuripistol, and possibly THREE for charging.

I don't see anything that implies otherwise.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:But having two 'special' weapons still doesn't mean you have to use both. He has a shuriken pistol. ALL combat weapons are 'one-handed', so that distinction never needs to be made.

The rulebook says, 'Power fists, thunder hammers and lightning claws are an exception to this. Only a second power fist, thunder hammer or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons.'

Witchblades are described above, but not mentioned in the exception. I believe that Eldrad can use three psychic powers, and if he ends up in combat on the same turn, then he has ONE basic attack, TWO for the addition of the Shuripistol, and possibly THREE for charging.

I don't see anything that implies otherwise.

Really? Allow me to point you in the right direction then. Page 42. Fighting with two single handed weapons section. Two Different Special Weapons. "they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons". You are right that it isn't implied. But that is because it is specifically stated! All that is required is that the model be equipped with two different special weapons and this rule kicks in. And the rule itself even covers your first point, about the model having to choose which one to use.......................

I've had three hours of sleep in the past... hmm... getting towards 48 now.

Well, what I'm trying to say is that you're absolutely right.

'(such is
the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!).'

That's fair enough.

The 'two-handed battle axe' example still bugs me. I understand that a Space Marine, for example, can't use his bolter-butt and pistol to get an extra attack, but can anyone give me an example of a unit that has a denoted two handed melee weapon (that isn't a gun)?

Double Poast.

... this has had me puzzle since some one told me about it ...

I always played it that the staff was 2 handed (come on its bigger then him and his silly hat)

Now any way to the rules in CC you have 2 hands you put a weapon in each hand, if you've got more then 2 weapons you must pick which

he had a pistal, a witchblade, and His staff
pistal + witchblade = +1a
pistal + staff = +1a
witchblade + staff = no extra atack

SM could use the bolter + pistal for an extra CC attack but only where the bolter is listed as a 1hand weapon (see DH & WH) other wise it can't be used in CC

Tri wrote:... this has had me puzzle since some one told me about it ...

I always played it that the staff was 2 handed (come on its bigger then him and his silly hat)

Now any way to the rules in CC you have 2 hands you put a weapon in each hand, if you've got more then 2 weapons you must pick which

he had a pistal, a witchblade, and His staff
pistal + witchblade = +1a
pistal + staff = +1a
witchblade + staff = no extra atack

SM could use the bolter + pistal for an extra CC attack but only where the bolter is listed as a 1hand weapon (see DH & WH) other wise it can't be used in CC

Eldard's pistol is irrelevant. He can never use it in hth due to the fact that he's equipped with two special hth weapons. That in and of itself means he never (per the rule) gets the +1 attack.

Tri, the bottom right hand corner of page 42 is very clear, I just missed it. That would work in 4th ed., but then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

True Grit is something that normal SMs just don't have. Thunder Hammers are one handed, every other bloody weapon I can think of is one handed. Doesn't matter so much on uncustomisable special ICs anyway. He simply gets lone less attack than your average Farseer, and I'm not complaining. He gets enough!

Arctik_Firangi wrote:I've had three hours of sleep in the past... hmm... getting towards 48 now.

Well, what I'm trying to say is that you're absolutely right.

'(such is
the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!).'

That's fair enough.

The 'two-handed battle axe' example still bugs me. I understand that a Space Marine, for example, can't use his bolter-butt and pistol to get an extra attack, but can anyone give me an example of a unit that has a denoted two handed melee weapon (that isn't a gun)?

Ork Big Choppas are specifically noted as two-handed close combat weapons.
Only Nobs get access to them, not normal boyz.

Ah, of course. Cheers. That's 'two-handed battleaxe' right on the head.

i can see your point but the rule is for when there are for when a character only has 2 weapons and both are Speical ... Eldard and many others have more then 2 cc weapons and so get more then one combination (... he can have ether 2 special weapons or 2 different combinations of normal and special weapons)

... still add it yakface's 5ed FAQ it would be nice to know if you're right

I can see why you would think that way Tri, I assume it's because of 4th edition, there have been a number of subtle changes to the way special close combat weapons work between 4th and 5th though, for example if you had a power fist and chainsword in the last edition you not only got a bonus attack from this combo but could choose to not use the powerfist and strike at half strength but at initiative value, that is no longer a valid choice.

The RAW on this is very clear that "they NEVER get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!)" (Bold mine)

I always loved imagining that my assault sergeant with the pointing powerfist would just sort of jab people with his huge finger when striking at normal initiative... in 4th ed.

There would _never_ have been a reason to combine two special weapons with different rules. You can't elect to be fighting with the staff AND the sword. You couldn't do that in 4th either. Therefore it would make no sense for the rule only to apply when he is attacking with the staff AND sword. Not to mention that the staff basically makes the sword redundant, but it wasn't considered when the codex was written. The rule refers to the fact that he's loaded own with equipment, not what he has elected to use.
Like I said, the codex is 4th ed. The sword could be taken out of his wargear list and everything would be fine, but that's not up to you.

To 'wield' could be looked at subjectively, but the model itself is sure as hell 'wielding' both of them.

Drunkspleen wrote:The RAW on this is very clear that "they NEVER get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!)" (Bold mine)

Only if you totally ignore the header of that section of rules, you know where it say "Two different special weapons".

Uh...

What's your point?

That the entire subject of that section is two different special weapons. Just because they're picking and choosing a line that simply says "two weapons" doesn't mean it applies to all weapons. The "different" and "special" is implied in that sentence if not explicitly stated due to the header. It should be read as such:

... they never get the bonus attack for using two DIFFERENT SPECIAL weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!)...

Oh, sorry. Well, I kind of figured everyone knew we were talking about Eldrad here. I guess you just meant he shouldn't have emphasised 'NEVER' when he wasn't including the specific header.
I'm pretty sure we all agree that he doesn't get an extra attack.

So in summary... Page 42 pwns Eldrad fans. Hurrah!

No. I'm saying that using the pistol and Staff he WOULD gain an extra attack (if the Staff is a single handed weapon, but that's another discussion). Only if you ignore the header of the section that they're quoting from do you come to the conclusion that you don't get the extra attack.

Okay, I need sleep. I'm obviously too impressionable at the moment, but for what it's worth, I'm reverting to what I said in my second post in this thread. Shuripistol is just a CCW in assault, and somehow I let myself think that it had something to do with the number of weapons being carried.

Good night all, or good day, or whatever.

... people keep quoting that rule but it doesn't stop eldrad (or any other multie weapon guy) for picking another combination of his weapons ...

"A normal and special weapon
These models gain one addtional attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus, benefit from the special weapons bonuses"

'2 different special weapons' rule is there only for times when you only have 2 different special weapon. there is no rule stating what weapons a model must use only rules for what is used i choose to use a pistal and his staff or a pistal and a witchblade

Ghaz wrote:That the entire subject of that section is two different special weapons. Just because they're picking and choosing a line that simply says "two weapons" doesn't mean it applies to all weapons. The "different" and "special" is implied in that sentence if not explicitly stated due to the header. It should be read as such:

... they never get the bonus attack for using two DIFFERENT SPECIAL weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!)...

I disagree. I think that in this instance they said exactly what they meant. If you are "equipped" (per the first paragraph) with two different special weapons, then as per the last paragraph you never get the +1 bonus. The number and types of other weapons you may or may not be equipped with is totally irrelevant. You have met the criteria, ie you are equipped with two different special weapons, and so you suffer the penalty. So Eldrad, Marneus Calgar, or any other uber-special charater that happens to have two different special weapons, suck it up and drive on, but do it without the +1 attack.

“Some models are equipped with two [or more] single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations.”

The key here is the “different possible combinations.” Does that mean, “equipment combinations,” or “use combinations?” I think the correct meaning is “use combinations,” which means the rules listed apply to the combination of single-handed weapons the character chooses to use. Why do I say this?

First, if “the different possible combinations” referred to a character’s equipment, it would be superfluous to have said “can use in close combat.” Obviously, if a model is equipped with single-handed weapons then they can use them in close combat. By adding the phrase about “use,” the sentence suggests that the “combinations” refers to what a model chooses to use. Think about it. If the rule said, "Some models are equipped with two [or more] single-handed weapons, and the rules given below are for the different possible combinations,” then there would be no question.

Secondly, a “common sense” view of the rule supports my position. If a model has some number of attacks because he’s got a sword in one hand and a pistol in the other, it doesn’t make any sense why he should lose an attack just because there’s also another sword strapped to his back. I acknowledge that this argument would not be sufficient on its own, I’m just saying…

Third, there is a possible problem of reading “combinations” as “equipment combinations” in consideration of the “A normal and a special weapon” rule. As that rule states: “Power fists, thunder hammers, and lightning claws … Only a second power fist … can confer a bonus attack.” Let’s say a model is equipped with a power fist, a bolt pistol, and a second power fist. Does he get a bonus attack under the “equipment combinations” approach? Maybe not, because he’s not equipped with “only a second power fist,” he’s equipped with a bolt pistol and a second power fist. Most people, however, would want their bonus attack, and I agree. It makes more sense to say that because he’s using two power fists, and not his bolt pistol, that he should get the extra attack.

don_mondo wrote:

Ghaz wrote:That the entire subject of that section is two different special weapons. Just because they're picking and choosing a line that simply says "two weapons" doesn't mean it applies to all weapons. The "different" and "special" is implied in that sentence if not explicitly stated due to the header. It should be read as such:

... they never get the bonus attack for using two DIFFERENT SPECIAL weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!)...

I disagree. I think that in this instance they said exactly what they meant. If you are "equipped" (per the first paragraph) with two different special weapons, then as per the last paragraph you never get the +1 bonus. The number and types of other weapons you may or may not be equipped with is totally irrelevant. You have met the criteria, ie you are equipped with two different special weapons, and so you suffer the penalty. So Eldrad, Marneus Calgar, or any other uber-special charater that happens to have two different special weapons, suck it up and drive on, but do it without the +1 attack.

Agreed

Sadly though, Calgar has 2 Power Fists.

InquisitorFabius wrote:Sadly though, Calgar has 2 Power Fists.

So? He also has a power weapon, thereby throwing him into the two different special weapons category.