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So, masque can shoot her pavane three times and one can shoot multiple weapons at the same target. I know that pavane only works once, but stick with me here. Say she hits with all three pavanes - do you get to roll 3d6 and take the highest since it is simultaneous?

Thanks!

No. The Codex specifically prohibits a unit being affected by multiple Pavanes.

That's why the Masque has the ability to shoot at multiple units.

Taking multiple shots at the same unit is really only useful for when you really really need to move that unit, and even then, you can roll a '1' for distance.

Pavane is a cute trick, but it's no where near as broken as Lash

And remember boys and girls.

Masque is *not* an IC, so can't join other units

Sigh. I said that specifically in my post. Please re read it. Shooting happens at the same time. I get three hits. Do I get to roll 3 dice and take the high one or do I have to just roll 1.

Somnicide wrote:Sigh. I said that specifically in my post. Please re read it. Shooting happens at the same time. I get three hits. Do I get to roll 3 dice and take the high one or do I have to just roll 1.

Like I said, no. Unfortunately, you can't roll 3d6, take the highest.

From the Codex:
"Successive hits have no effect."

Firing multiple shots at a single unit makes it more likely that you'll successfully hit that unit, but only 1d6 will be rolled.

Right, but shooting from a single model is not successive. If it were, you could pavane a unit into a nice flamer shaped group and hit with a DP Breath.

Successive =/= Simultaneous, which is what the Masque is.

The masque is the only character where it comes up - even a blue scribes "watch this" will be successive.

So then you're saying that the power can only be used once on a unit in a game? Because that's the only other option left if you don't agree with MinMax's interpretation.

No, I am saying...

Masque shoots all three shots and all three hit. All shooting from a single unit (in this case, a single model) hits simultaneously. Do you roll 3d6 for the effect (1d6 for each hit as you normally would for shooting) and take the highest and discard the others, since it only moves 1d6 worth or do you just discount the other 2 simultaneous hits and roll only 1d6.

Any successive hits (from other models) obviously have no effect as stated in the rules.

Why wouldnt you be able to use pavane first then wind of chaos after that with your DP?

You would. Sorry I should have been more clear. If you have a DP with pavane and breath even though they can fire 2 weapons (because they are monstrous creatures) they cannot fire pavane first to move the unit and then breath because the shooting is simultaneous.

Let me ask again, why? Maybe I missed something in the rules since I actually dont run that, but wont you be able to bunch them up first then use your template? If you could back it up with some rulebook page reference or something would really help.

Kalbrand, the rules is that all shooting from a unit is simultaneous, and resolved as such. Therefore, you don't resolve one shot or group of shots from the unit before resolving another.

Say for instance I have a SM tac squad with 5 bolters and a plasma gun shooting at a CSM squad with a AC and 4 CSM. I do not have the option of firing all 5 bolters and making my opponant pull casualties before rolling and pulling casualties for the plasma gun in the hopes of tagging a suddenly single AC. I roll all hits and wounds, and he assigns all effects at the same time.

Likewise, the DP's pavane and breath happen at the same time, so you place the template, see what is it hit, roll for wounds, and then roll for hitting with pavane and roll for effect. THEN your opponant allocates wounds, and the men are (re)moved around the board.

I do agree with Somnicide as well that you should roll 3d6 and pick the highest, since the attacks are simultaneous and not successive. It is a bit of a gray area created by GW's rules, mostly around the order of opperations since simultaneous might imply you COULD get 3d6 movement out of Pavane that way, but I think 3d6 and pick the highest makes the most sense out of the grey area.

I was going to put forward an argument about rolling the pavane dice in sequence, but that got shot down when I was reminded of the simultanous shots rule by Wehrkind's post. It just only makes sense that you would choose not to move the unit with the low rolling pavane hits.

From personal experience, firing two pavane's at a single unit because you would really like to avoid missing does make sense. Do keep in mind that she does have "We are Legion" so she could pavane up to three different units.

Somnicide wrote:No, I am saying...

Masque shoots all three shots and all three hit. All shooting from a single unit (in this case, a single model) hits simultaneously. Do you roll 3d6 for the effect (1d6 for each hit as you normally would for shooting) and take the highest and discard the others, since it only moves 1d6 worth or do you just discount the other 2 simultaneous hits and roll only 1d6.

Any successive hits (from other models) obviously have no effect as stated in the rules.

Even if they hit simultaneously, they're still 'successive'. It's three 'successive' Pavanes and not one 'single' Pavane.

No, it is three simultaneous Pavanes, not 3 successive pavanes.

No, it's three succesisve Pavanes. It doesn't matter if they're applied simulatneously or not. If it's not the first one, then it's a successive one. How it's applied in the game is inconsequential.

Wait, Ghaz, you are stating that 3 simultaneous, which is to say "happening at the same time", pavanes are also 3 "successive" pavanes, which is to say "one after another".

So your position is that
(happening at the same time) = (happens one after the other)

Really? So, can I shoot my tac squad's lascannon at your rhino, blast the troops out, then gun them down with bolters?

I hadnt tought about it that way and checked the rules when I got home. You actually do roll all to hit rolls at the same time, so that would mean they are simultaneous.

But doesnt this leave tau in the deep doodoo, with a markerlight in the squads but unable to benefit from it?

Of course, tau squads can not benefit from their own markerlights. I never know a player who did it otherwise, but then again, I have only played 2 consistently enough to notice.

As far as I know, the Bluescribes are the only unit in the game that can shoot two powers/weapons successively, and not simultaneously because of the "Watch This" rule.

Back to the original question...I think that you've got a grey area here, so you have to go with only rolling a d6.

I'd go with rolling multiple and picking the one you want.

And yeah, Tau don't benefit from their own Marker Light with the exception of Networked Marker Light, as that is specifically intended to benefit the unit it's in.

You're casting more than one Pavane, so you're casting successive Pavanes that affect the target simultaneously. Your mistaking the simultaneous effect for casting.

You're not "casting" because it's not a psychic power, it's a shooting weapon. It's like saying a squad of marines is firing successive bolter rounds, instead of simo. You're firing three simultaneous Pavanes. They'd hit at the same time, not successively. Heck, if you wanted to go pure unadulterated RAW, they'd probably have to move 3d6, but I doubt that one would survive very many tourney calls, or any kind of FAQ. I'd play it as I already said, roll a d6 for each hit, and pick the one you want to apply. Any further hits, iow successive, would then no longer affect the target.

Yes, you're casting. It follows the rules for shooting weapons, true but 'casting' and 'shooting' are interchangeable here.

And yes, you are casting three successive Pavanes. Only one Pavane can affect the target.

Aduro wrote:
I'd play it as I already said, roll a d6 for each hit, and pick the one you want to apply.

In other words, you'd only allow one Pavane to affect the model and the successive Pavanes would have no affect.

Somnicide wrote:If you have a DP with pavane and breath even though they can fire 2 weapons (because they are monstrous creatures) they cannot fire pavane first to move the unit and then breath because the shooting is simultaneous.

I have a problem with this statement, because even though the rules say "all shooting is simultaneous", that's physically impossible. Since you say you cannot pavane a unit into place, then hit it with the breath, logically I can assume when you play that you use the breath attack, then move the models via the pavane. Bad news, you're still not doing it simultaneously. All you've done there is choose the non-simultaneous option that least benefits you.

for the record, I don't know how I would handle the pavane/breath from the same unit question. I've never had it come up, mostly because I've avoided it.

as for the 3d6 pick the best, rolling the 3 dice (or however many hits you get) makes sense. Why would you get to pick the best, however? Why not select the worst? The rules support both of those suppositions equally. I've always played it as just rolling 1d6 regardless of how many hits, but that's only because by strict rule wording the actual rule would be "roll 3d6, take the first" which is physically impossible to determine, unless you happen to see which stopped rolling first.

Nah, you'd do the breath then move the unit. The shots happen simo, which means you do your hits, then your wounds/effects. You could roll to see if Pavane hits first, but then you still have to check your hits on the breath weapon before resolving the "wound" from Pavane.

the only way I can parse this process would be step by step:
Determine all the hits. Did pavane hit? how many hits with breath?
determine all the wounds. pavane has no wound step, so you would move the guys at this phase. how many breath wounds?
determine all unsaved wounds. no more steps left for pavane. how many invulns made against breath?

This adheres to the rules, and still keeps the same result.

The magic words to me are "When a unit fires, all of its weapons are fired simultaneously" and resolved simultaneously except when otherwise noted.

So, if you have two or more pavane hits, rolling the dice all at once and selecting one makes more sense and is faster than rolling each die in sequence and trying to decide whether to use it.

Is this going to end up being a poll question?　

solkan wrote:

So, if you have two or more pavane hits, rolling the dice all at once and selecting one makes more sense and is faster than rolling each die in sequence and trying to decide whether to use it.

Could roll them one at a time then either chose to ignore it or roll again. ex: have 3 hits 1st roll is a 2 so you roll again , second roll is a 5 you decide to roll again third roll is a four and you got greedy and have to take the four. its like a minigame dice wammy if you will.