It's Time to Speak Out Against The 'Mormon Boycott'

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Frazzled**

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/12/its_time_to_speak_out_against.html

It's Time to Speak Out Against The 'Mormon Boycott'
By William A. Jacobson

Supporters of gay marriage have reacted with anger at the passage of California Proposition 8, which amended the California state constitution to provide that only marriages that fit the traditional definition (one man, one woman) will be recognized. The resulting protest movement has devolved into anti-Mormon bigotry which has been met with silence by liberal civil rights groups. The anti-Mormon fervor has become so nasty, and is growing at such a pace, that it is time to speak out against the "Mormon boycott."

The use of boycotts in support of gay marriage, including by some law professors, preceded the passage of Prop. 8. These boycotts, which aim at suppressing political speech, are distinct from the boycotts of the black civil rights movement in the 1950s and 1960s. The civil rights boycotts sought not to suppress speech, but to provide access to goods and services by targeting those people withholding the goods and services.

Regardless of whether one supports the use of boycotts in the Prop. 8 context, the targeting of Mormons is gross hypocrisy considering that other groups, such as Blacks and Latinos, likely were the decisive electoral factor. A persuasive argument can be made that Mormons have been singled out because they are a relatively small group with political power mostly in one state. The irony of singling out a religious group which has itself been the victim of discrimination appears lost on anti-Prop. 8 boycott groups.

The anti-Prop. 8 boycott efforts have not been limited to Mormons, but Mormons have been the primary focus of public vitriol and at the center of the boycott movement. The evidence is mounting daily that the "Mormon boycott" efforts of pro-gay marriage groups have gone too far, and have devolved into anti-Mormon hate speech.

While the web is filled with hate speech by fringe elements directed at many groups, the anti-Mormon efforts are openly embraced and promoted by a wide range of anti-Prop. 8 groups. Anti-Mormon hate speech no longer is on the fringe, it is at the heart of the post-election anti-Prop. 8 campaign. The examples are too numerous to list completely. This sampling reflects the breadth and increasing scope of post-election anti-Mormon activities:

The creation of a boycott list of Mormon-owned hotels. The creator of the list states as follows: "I personally won't do business with any Marriott hotels, as they are owned by Mormons. I'm done with this gak. They just use the money against us."
Additional calls for a boycott of all Mormons: "While much ado is being made about the overwhelming support of prop 8 by black voters in California, there is little ado being made about getting even with the Mormons...."
A boycott of the entire state of Utah because of the high percentage of Mormons, and other efforts targeting Mormons as "hate's banker, and we need to make sure that their moral bankruptcy becomes a fiscal one as well."
Protests at Mormon churches around the country, including New York City, Salt Lake City, and Los Angeles.
Postings on Daily Kos and elsewhere calling for boycott of Mormon owned businesses: "Businesses owned by Mormons, who tithe to the Church, should also be boycotted. Large amounts of Church income comes from tithings. Vote with your wallets! Every dollar less that you give to a tithed Mormon is a dollar less that can be tithed and spent on anti-gay activity."
Postings on YouTube of blatantly anti-Mormon videos calling on people to "Boycott the Utah Hate State and the Mormons."
The creation of high profile websites devoted to portraying Mormons as having betrayed the U.S. by taking control of the Boy Scouts and other devices: "The Mormon people have been able to flourish because of this country's generous spirit. But now, history has reversed, and it is the Mormons who have become the oppressor."
The production of an anti-Mormon musical by the creators of South Park, which is expected to start rehearsals soon.
Calls not to tip Mormon waiters: "Now do not tip, hire, or do any business with a Mormon. 10% of their income goes to the church that worked tirelessly to take the civil rights away from people. They are a Nazi organization who only what their point of view followed. I asked my waiter if he were a Mormon, when he said he was I did not tip him, telling him, I was sorry but I can not support bigotry."
Suggestions that Mormon businesses that do not wish to be harassed should post signs in their windows against Prop. 8: "Any business, Mormon or otherwise, can take the simple step of posting a sign on the premises urging the repeal of Prop 8, or make a public statement against it."
Calls to fire a Mormon employed by the American Jewish Congress because he supported Prop. 8.
The forced resignation of the Mormon director of the Los Angeles Film Festival for support of Prop. 8.
The investigation by the State of California of the Mormon Church's tax exempt status, even though religious organizations routinely support or oppose political causes without losing their exempt status.
A hotel in New Mexico luring visitors away from Utah by using a web address that incorporates the words "mormon-boycott-utah."
A call to boycott businesses, including Macy's and Nordstrom, which plan to open stores at a shopping mall owned by the Mormon church: "The Mormon Church came after our rights, and if we don't stop them, they will be back again and again."
A call to boycott businesses which have Mormons in senior positions: "Universely [sic], we need to avoid putting any more money into the Church's coffers by boycotting all companies where a Mormon church member holds an officer's position or a large majority interest."
Efforts to create and distribute lists of businesses "either owned by the Church, owned by Mormons, having a Mormon in a high executive position, or generally benefiting Mormons," including on Facebook and elsewhere.
The boycott of Mormon business has been likened to a war: "There is a war cry being sounded in gay communities all across America - Boycott Mormon owned businesses. This is a war cry that should be heeded."
The singling out of Mormons, and the hateful nature of the boycott, is not coincidental. Prop. 8 is being used as an excuse to vent pent-up anger at the Mormon Church, and the traditional lifestyle of Mormons. With each passing day, it seems that the web is filled with more and more hate speech directed at Mormons. As others have noted, the attacks on Mormons would not be tolerated if directed at other religious or ethnic groups.

What is most disturbing is that there has been complete silence from groups that normally defend religious freedom. The Anti-Defamation League has not stepped forward to defend Mormons against the current boycotts, even though the ADL has spoken out against anti-Mormon hate crimes in the past.

The silence of the ADL and other Jewish groups is unconscionable. Economic boycotts of goods and academics have been condemned as veiled anti-semitism by ... the ADL.

In the end, the supporters of gay marriage who engage in anti-Mormon hate speech will realize that they have damaged their own cause. Lashing out at others and engaging in religious bigotry does not constitute an argument in favor of gay marriage.

Regardless of one's position on gay marriage, it is time to speak out against the "Mormon boycott." There simply is no one else who will, if we don't.

William A. Jacobson is Associate Clinical Professor of Law at Cornell Law School in Ithaca, NY, and author of the Legal Insurrection Blog. The views expressed here are his own, and not on behalf of the university.

OT but man I am so Jonesing for a piece of chocolate cake with rich sweet frosting...

**Railguns**

Cue Mannahin or Dogma to come in and refute in 3....2....1......

But really if true this is not surprising in the least to me. The blame game is great, especially with such easy targets.

**CorporateLogo**

Here's a quote I like:

What constitutes “bigotry”? And can you come up with a definition that allows you to say that critics of social conservatives are bigots, but not social conservatives who block marriage rights?

**Gen. Lee Losing**

By easy targets, do you mean those mormons or the other 52% of the state that voted yes on 8?

**Ozymandias**

Despite blacks and latinos contributing to the passage of Prop 8, they aren't an organized target like the Mormon Church is. The Mormon church contributed to Prop 8 so the protesters and boycotters have a real target. So I think the argument that "Blacks and Latinos helped pass Prop 8 so hate them too!" is silly because there is no Black/Latino Church/Corp for people to direct their displeasure at.

Now, while I think it is fair to criticize the Mormon Church for being involved in politics, it is rather silly to start boycotting Mormon owned businesses and products. It's pretty unproductive and only makes them resent the gay marriage cause.

Frankly, wait 4-8 more years and then have another election to remove the amendment to the CA constitution. Over 60% of young people voted "No" and over 60% of old people voted "Yes". Guess what, given time, gay marriage is going to be legal.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

**lord_sutekh**

Any organization that is so monolithic as the Mormon Church that sets itself against the rights of a subset of Americans DESERVES community action against it. I won't go so far as to call it a cult, but it comes scarily close. It doesn't matter if they are the ultimate cause; they still hold a lot of responsibility, as an institution.

**Gen. Lee Losing**

Was it really "Us vs. Them" by the Mormons? I think they have a religious belief about marriage. Like Catholics. Like many faiths. Is it wrong for a church to remind it's members of their faith? As i read it, the Mormon church did not directly contribute. I t asked its members to. They were free to do as they please (even vote no on 8).

**Ozymandias**

I have a problem with any Church taking an official stance in an election. Whether its to support a candidate or, in this case, a Proposition. I have even more issues with a church in UTAH trying to influence a CALIFORNIA election.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

**Gen. Lee Losing**

I can understand your point. But Mormons are in England, S. America, etc. They are everywhere. So the Utah thing is a little off.

And as far as I am reading, that church took no part in any other proposition. Only one that conflicted with their doctrines.

**Mekniakal**

I find it distasteful that any group would try and impose their own belief system on others.

I have a Mormon friend whose family recently left the church due to proposition 8. One of the biggest reasons was they spent $20 million dollars to attempt to limit the civil liberties of a small subset of the American population. Imagine if all that money was spent helping the homeless, feeding the poor, and finding children homes...

Simply, they decided to move to a more accepting Christian sect, where they could be sure that the money they donated wouldn't go to discrimination.

**dogma**

I won't defend the boycott because, like most protests targeted at specific groups, it is stupid. However, in so far as no services/sales are being denied, it is not illegal.

**Typeline**

TL;DR

Any church that takes political stances should have it's tax exempt status removed.

**utan**

The law says that any non-profit group that endorses or financially supports a candidate forfeits it's 501c status.

This is borderline but anything more would be a gross violation of the Bill of rights (Freedom OF religion and freedom of speech).

Read the US Constitution it's a really good document.

**sebster**

Frazzled wrote:http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/12/its_time_to_speak_out_against.html

It's Time to Speak Out Against The 'Mormon Boycott'
By William A. Jacobson

(snip)

The civil rights boycotts sought not to suppress speech, but to provide access to goods and services by targeting those people withholding the goods and services.

Equating ‘speech’ with enacting legislation to remove the rights of a minority group is absurd.

Regardless of whether one supports the use of boycotts in the Prop. 8 context, the targeting of Mormons is gross hypocrisy considering that other groups, such as Blacks and Latinos, likely were the decisive electoral factor. A persuasive argument can be made that Mormons have been singled out because they are a relatively small group with political power mostly in one state.

Except, of course, that mormons provided most of the funding for the prop-8 campaign, and voted almost uniformly for it. Whereas the black and latino populations voted 70% for it, meaning if you boycott a black owned business you’re about 30% likely of missing the target and ending up a jackass.

The irony of singling out a religious group which has itself been the victim of discrimination appears lost on anti-Prop. 8 boycott groups.

The irony of sponsoring the removal of rights from a minority by a religious minority seems lost on the Mormons and geniuses at American Thinker.

While the web is filled with hate speech by fringe elements directed at many groups, the anti-Mormon efforts are openly embraced and promoted by a wide range of anti-Prop. 8 groups. Anti-Mormon hate speech no longer is on the fringe, it is at the heart of the post-election anti-Prop. 8 campaign. The examples are too numerous to list completely. This sampling reflects the breadth and increasing scope of post-election anti-Mormon activities:

The sampling is mostly a list of boycotts and calls to boycott by individuals on sites like DailyKos. There’s also reference to a satirical play by the South Park guys, who were writing stuff making fun of the Mormons long before prop 8.

And that’s it. Individuals on the internet saying stuff, not as part of any formal group, and holding no political power beyond an account at DailyKos. Can you taste the Mormon oppression?

Oh, and the investigation into the involvement of a Church in politics? Is one of several churches being investigated (they never amount to anything) and is a consequence of the level of blatant politicising of the Church.

But notice there’s no actual incidents of violent or real, physical oppression. Something the homosexual community faces every day.

What is most disturbing is that there has been complete silence from groups that normally defend religious freedom. The Anti-Defamation League has not stepped forward to defend Mormons against the current boycotts, even though the ADL has spoken out against anti-Mormon hate crimes in the past.

Their role is to defend bodies from hate crimes. Despite the authors woeful understanding of ‘hate’ and ‘crime’, neither is going on here. The author notes when hate crimes have occurred the ADL has stepped in.

The silence of the ADL and other Jewish groups is unconscionable. Economic boycotts of goods and academics have been condemned as veiled anti-semitism by ... the ADL.

Yes, when anti-semitism is the cause, then boycotts should be condemned as anti-semitic. When they’re a political response to a political action taken by a church, they need to be taken at face value.

Regardless of one's position on gay marriage, it is time to speak out against the "Mormon boycott." There simply is no one else who will, if we don't.

Well sure, if we don’t protect the ability of minorities to remove rights from other minorities without fear of economic consequences then no-one will. Personally I’m alright with that.

OT but man I am so Jonesing for a piece of chocolate cake with rich sweet frosting...

Frazzled, you’re not a dumb guy, but you read a lot of junk.

**Gen. Lee Losing**

Typeline wrote:TL;DR

Any church that takes political stances should have it's tax exempt status removed.

How about a moral stand? Will you permit them that? Do churches have a right to say that abortions are bad? Can a church tell its members to support something that prohibits abortions (since that church feels it is bad)? Is this politics or moral instruction (the purpose of churches)?

**Gen. Lee Losing**

sebster wrote:

Except, of course, that mormons provided most of the funding for the prop-8 campaign, and voted almost uniformly for it. Whereas the black and latino populations voted 70% for it, meaning if you boycott a black owned business you’re about 30% likely of missing the target and ending up a jackass.

As opposed to laying the blame at a church that did not donate the money (it was the members of that church, not the church itself). You also have no way of knowing the vote of the Mormons as votes are on secret ballets. I would wager that the number would be similar to active Catholics. As for the cash, the "Yes on 8" was outspent by the "No on 8". It is not like money buys votes or 8 would have been voted down! And No on 8 also recieve out of state funds (NY, etc.)

**Fallen668**

Got to love it when one group tries to force others to live by the writings of a 2000+/- year old book that is supposedly devine in nature but in reality had to go through an editing process and still can't tell a cohesive story and keep its' facts straight.

**Gen. Lee Losing**

Fallen668 wrote:Got to love it when one group tries to force others to live by the writings of a 2000+/- year old book that is supposedly devine in nature but in reality had to go through an editing process and still can't tell a cohesive story and keep its' facts straight.

I think you would be shocked as to how much of your morals are based on that very book. For example, are all people equal? In most sets or moral codes that are not from the 'western' school of thought- the answer is no. Confucianism sets each person in their place and they should happy in it. India had a very rigid cast system. African tribe brutally murdered other tribes. Life was cheap, really. It was "western thought" (which is based on that book) that taught that life is equal.

edited:typo

**Mekniakal**

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:
Fallen668 wrote:Got to love it when one group tries to force others to live by the writings of a 2000+/- year old book that is supposedly devine in nature but in reality had to go through an editing process and still can't tell a cohesive story and keep its' facts straight.

I think you would be shocked as to how much of your morals are based on that very book. For example, are all people equal? In most sets or moral codes that are not from the 'western' school of thought- the answer is no. Confucianism sets each person in their place and they should happy in it. India had a very rigid cast system. African tribe brutally murdered other tribes. Life was cheap, really. It was "western thought" (which is based on that book) that taught that life is equal.

edited:typo

Are you serious? What's next, "the constitution was based on the ten commandments?".

You do realize that until recently blacks were considered second class citizens, right? Even in this "Christian" country, right? The morality that you seem to believe comes from a single specific book is evidenced in all civilizations. A civilization cannot exist if people don't come to a few basic understandings; that they won't be murdered by their neighbor, their neighbor won't steal from them, and that they will be protected from external harm.

Modernization has brought about the new liberties of today, not a specific book. It wasn't two hundred years ago when people were using the bible to justify slavery of black people, and it was much more recently that is was used to justify the illegality of interracial marriage. Or were the Salem witch trials not influenced by that "very book?" The Inquisition?

I go by this standby: 8 out of ten people are basically decent no matter what they believe, and the other two are

that will find a way to make every one else miserable.

**Railguns**

I called the Mormons an easy target not out of disrespect, but becuase they are a publicly visible church. Not to down any anti-8ers or anything, but usually churches are the first to be villified as anti-gay. Whether Mormons actually went out to oppress gays or not isn't the issue, they are just seen as a traditional enemy and thus are easy targets to blame. You know, how Republicans are seen as easy targets to blame economic trouble on, or how Democrats are usually blamed for national defense troubles, or the Man is blamed for race relations. I wonder how much of the anti-mormon hate is actually legitimate and how much is simple "blame the most likely candidate knee-jerk" reaction.

**sebster**

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:As opposed to laying the blame at a church that did not donate the money (it was the members of that church, not the church itself). You also have no way of knowing the vote of the Mormons as votes are on secret ballets. I would wager that the number would be similar to active Catholics. As for the cash, the "Yes on 8" was outspent by the "No on 8". It is not like money buys votes or 8 would have been voted down! And No on 8 also recieve out of state funds (NY, etc.)

The figures are known in the same the black vote is known, exit polling. It’s by no means exact, but no-one is denying the charge that Mormons voted overwhelmingly for it.

And yes, money makes a big difference, it’s why people spend so much of it on campaigning. There’s been a lot of discussion in the media on how well funded and organised the pro-prop 8 campaign was, compared to the anti-prop 8 campaign.

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:I think you would be shocked as to how much of your morals are based on that very book. For example, are all people equal? In most sets or moral codes that are not from the 'western' school of thought- the answer is no. Confucianism sets each person in their place and they should happy in it. India had a very rigid cast system. African tribe brutally murdered other tribes. Life was cheap, really. It was "western thought" (which is based on that book) that taught that life is equal.

edited:typo

African tribes killed other African tribes. Because they were all united under one homogenous faith. And then it could be contrasted with medieval Europe, which was full of informed debate and no violence at all? Dude, that was a very racist, poorly informed comment.

And Western thought is not based on the bible. It is a very important book, but it is one of many, many important books. First and foremost, you have to remember the bible is a guide for the life of the individual, and treats the state as something outside the private life of the faithful.

Mekniakal wrote:Are you serious? What's next, "the constitution was based on the ten commandments?".

You do realize that until recently blacks were considered second class citizens, right? Even in this "Christian" country, right?

To be fair, the movement against slavery came out of socially minded Christian groups.

Modernization has brought about the new liberties of today, not a specific book. It wasn't two hundred years ago when people were using the bible to justify slavery of black people, and it was much more recently that is was used to justify the illegality of interracial marriage. Or were the Salem witch trials not influenced by that "very book?" The Inquisition?

Yeah, this is it exactly.

**Doctor Thunder**

To me, the core issue is this: When you use a democratic process to resolve differences, what is the appropriate response when you win, and what is the appropriate response when you lose?

I think it is a basic requirement in a democracy for both sides to be willing to accept the results graciously.

In this case, I think the soft response is usually the more effective one. I think adopting a response of hate will hurt the anti-8 groups cause more then it will help it.

**dogma**

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:
I think you would be shocked as to how much of your morals are based on that very book. For example, are all people equal? In most sets or moral codes that are not from the 'western' school of thought- the answer is no. Confucianism sets each person in their place and they should happy in it. India had a very rigid cast system. African tribe brutally murdered other tribes. Life was cheap, really. It was "western thought" (which is based on that book) that taught that life is equal.

edited:typo

Its been said by Sebster, but this is one of my personal pet peeves so...

Western thought is not based on the Bible. Dear God, it can not be said enough the extent to which Western thought is not based on the Bible. Indeed, the Bible, in its various incarnations throughout the ages, is a much better barometer of the thinking in a given era than it is a basis for that thinking. It cannot be emphasized properly just how deeply early Christian thinkers relied upon the teaching of pre-Biblical Hellenic texts for guidance in determining how to properly apply, and canonize, the various elements of the amalgamated biblical text. It is an important book, but it is not a foundational one.

**Mekniakal**

Doctor Thunder wrote:To me, the core issue is this: When you use a democratic process to resolve differences, what is the appropriate response when you win, and what is the appropriate response when you lose?

I think it is a basic requirement in a democracy for both sides to be willing to accept the results graciously.

In this case, I think the soft response is usually the more effective one. I think adopting a response of hate will hurt the anti-8 groups cause more then it will help it.

You realize Prop-8 was an initiative to repeal a law that was decided, right? The anti-gay groups didn't like the ruling, and fought it again. It will be struck down as unconstitutional, and the Mormons have wasted $20 million dollars that could have spent helping people instead of hating them.

Also, the majority cannot vote to limit the civil rights of a minority. What Prop-8 is trying to do is legislate discrimination into the state's constitution. It will be struck down by the Supreme Court because that's their job. They have to ensure the legality of a law, and one that flagrantly violates the rights of a minority is blatantly illegal.

@ Railguns, 50% of the funding of Prop-8 was by Mormons. They aren't just an easy target, they are the target. You don't see gays getting angry at Unitarian Churches, or Bhuddist temples do you?

**sebster**

dogma wrote:Its been said by Sebster, but this is one of my personal pet peeves so...

Yeah, but you said it a lot better.

**Railguns**

They are an "easy" target because they are a church, not the only target. It makes them easier to blame thoughtlessly. I'm not talking about what they actually did or didn't. If they were involved, and their side won, I think it would be all too easy for people to hate them because they are the obvious enemy and not dig any deeper into the issue, to see what actually happened and to what extent, to break down the sequence of events. Thats the kind of thing I'm worried about. I'm not defending anyone, I'm advocating full research into an issue to support opposition, rather than rausing opposition through simple group-think.

**Mekniakal**

Railguns wrote:They are an "easy" target because they are a church, not the only target. It makes them easier to blame thoughtlessly. I'm not talking about what they actually did or didn't. If they were involved, and their side won, I think it would be all too easy for people to hate them because they are the obvious enemy and not dig any deeper into the issue, to see what actually happened and to what extent, to break down the sequence of events. Thats the kind of thing I'm worried about. I'm not defending anyone, I'm advocating full research into an issue to support opposition, rather than rausing opposition through simple group-think.

What are the deeper topics involved in prop-8 besides barring homosexuals the right to marry? What secular groups were involved in the passing of prop-8? Do you know any reasons that preventing homosexuals the right to marry would be a proper course of action?

One of the reasons the Mormon Church is a target is because they created monstrously misleading ads, saying things like, "If prop-8 passes, kids will be taught HOMOSEXUALITY IN SCHOOLS!" which is, of course, a bald faced lie and a misrepresentation of what prop-8 was advocating to do. I'll posts some videos later of the advertisements they funded.

I am Arab and in the military. If I saw an advertisement that said, "Don't trust Arabs because they are all terrorists!" or saw an advertisement that said, "All military personnel are baby killing monsters!" I would be

pissed.

**reds8n**

proposition 8 : the musical

**malfred**

Mekniakal wrote:

I am Arab and in the military. "Don't trust Arabs because they are all terrorists!" or saw an advertisement that said, "All military personnel are baby killing monsters!" I would be pissed.

Wait, you're not?!

**Frazzled**

Baby! The Other Other White Meat!

Get in ma belly!