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I've run across this situation where I have a chaos sorcerer that is attached to a decent sized squad and they end up getting into combat with an equally decent sized squad and that squad has a powerfist. Is there any possbile way that the sorceror can be in the combat and not subject to getting fisted?

Models must combat what they are in base-to-base contact with. If you can get one of your "regular" guys in contact with his fist, he's got to attack the regulars.

Another idea is a wall of flesh around your character. If it is physically impossible for you to move him into combat, then he can't enter combat. This is purely a delaying tactic, after the first round he'll still have to close. It would keep him alive long enough to choose who he consolidates into.

sourclams wrote:Models must combat what they are in base-to-base contact with. If you can get one of your "regular" guys in contact with his fist, he's got to attack the regulars.

what page is that on? I was looking for that rule just the other day and couldnt find it.

Deadshane1 wrote:

sourclams wrote:Models must combat what they are in base-to-base contact with. If you can get one of your "regular" guys in contact with his fist, he's got to attack the regulars.

what page is that on? I was looking for that rule just the other day and couldnt find it.

If I had my BGB here I could find it for you. I don't, so I'll have to just tell you what the deal is with it.

The BGB does NOT explicitly state this. It talks about units assaulting who they're in B2B contact with. However, there's a diagram on the bottom of the page that, shows, IIRC, SM vs. Orks & grots. It describes which model can choose to attack which unit, and which one HAS to attack which unit.
The RAW (without the diagram), however, does not describe it in such detail.

...until you look at the FAQ, where an errata tells us what's missing (that fact being one of the missing items from the BGB).

Eric

BRB Page 35: Units with one or more model in base contact with enemies are said to be "locked in combat"

BRB Page 49: When attacks are resolved, however, independent charaters are always treated as a seperate single model unit.

Therefore, if no models are in base contact with the special character then they can't assault it. Of course the character can't strike back either.

Keep in mind this rule generally only works when charged, if you conduct the charge the IC will be at the front where possibile.

MagickalMemories wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

sourclams wrote:Models must combat what they are in base-to-base contact with. If you can get one of your "regular" guys in contact with his fist, he's got to attack the regulars.

what page is that on? I was looking for that rule just the other day and couldnt find it.

If I had my BGB here I could find it for you. I don't, so I'll have to just tell you what the deal is with it.

The BGB does NOT explicitly state this. It talks about units assaulting who they're in B2B contact with. However, there's a diagram on the bottom of the page that, shows, IIRC, SM vs. Orks & grots. It describes which model can choose to attack which unit, and which one HAS to attack which unit.
The RAW (without the diagram), however, does not describe it in such detail.

...until you look at the FAQ, where an errata tells us what's missing (that fact being one of the missing items from the BGB).

Eric

Exactly what I was looking for, found it, thanx.

Somewhere in the BGB (with red on the front cover), although im not sure if somones already mentioned, it tells us that an IC must charge the enemy above and before (that kinda thing) the normal troops. Somthing about cowardice. Those poor IG junior officers.

Razerous wrote:Somewhere in the BGB (with red on the front cover), although im not sure if somones already mentioned, it tells us that an IC must charge the enemy above and before (that kinda thing) the normal troops. Somthing about cowardice. Those poor IG junior officers.

bottom of page 49

Yes sir, Good man. Poor IC's

Keep ic's in transports away from CC ooor detach them from a squad, (in the movement phase) just before that squad goes in for the charge. He'll be quite safe from being fisted (lol...) but youd have to have a pickup planned as lascannons are a touch more deadly.

Yeh, dont charge with those Sorcis if ya cant whipe out the whole Squad or go base to base with the P-Fist if possible.
That´s why I love Nobleaders. They can be hidden in a mob of 29Sluggaz

The basics of keeping your IC from being fisted are actually fairly simple:

As long as the powerfist model is not in base contact with your IC, he must allocate his attacks at the unit the IC is with rather than at the IC himself. This means that when you have an IC joined to a unit you should always be assaulting the enemy when possible (rather than being assaulted) and it is imperative that one your regular squad members gets into base contact with the powerfist model during your charge moves, so the opposing player doesn't get the option of where to move the powerfist model when the defenders who aren't in base contact make their 'reaction' move.


Now, if you know you're not going to be able to charge with your IC and his unit and you think it is likely that you WILL BE charged by an opposing unit that contains a powerfist in the following turn it is imperative that you keep your IC away from the front of your unit and make sure he is screened by enough friendly models so that the opponent will not be able to get the powerfist guy into base contact with him during their charge move. That way, when you get charged your IC will get to make a 'reaction' move and you will be able to move him into CC against a regular pleeb from the enemy unit.

Of course, if the powerfist guy isn't actually in base contact with a regular member of your squad (just supporting within 2") there is a chance he'll still be able to allocate his attacks towards your IC, so it becomes very important for you to try to get a regular model into base contact with the powerfist guy with your squad's 'reaction' moves or at the very least move your IC into base contact with an enemy model that is more than 2" away from their powerfist guy.


In almost all cases it is beneficial to have more models in your unit than the opponent, so if you're worried about protecting your IC from powerfists then your best bet is to stick him with the largest size unit your army can muster.

Razerous wrote:Somewhere in the BGB (with red on the front cover), although im not sure if somones already mentioned, it tells us that an IC must charge the enemy above and before (that kinda thing) the normal troops. Somthing about cowardice. Those poor IG junior officers.

Almost. That is only true for React moves and Pile In moves.

This is excellent, you can hide your IC's sort of!

Basically if you aren't directly touched by the powerfist model and the powerfist model is engaged by a regular member of the unit, then your IC is safe from fisting in that round of combat.

*My further question is this. What happens if.. the powerfist model is not in base contact, and a regular guy is in base contact with the IC... HOWEVER.... during the regular intiative sequence the IC and his unit kill enough regular guys that there are no enemy models in base contact with the IC. Does this protect the IC? What I'm not sure is when you allocate your attacks, at the beginning of the phase or when your iniative timing occurs.

There is also the other question, An IC must move to make contact with the enemy where possible. Does this mean I need to move the IC first and if he's trapped then he doesn't move, even if after I move the rest of the regular guys and later discover he can now move to engage, or does he move with the unit, so I move one regular guy out of the way, then move the ic and then the regular guys? i know he's treated independantly, or is it ok to move all the regular guys, then move the IC, even though the regular guys may be deliberatly be moved in such a way that the IC can't make base contact?

Sazzlefrats wrote:This is excellent, you can hide your IC's sort of!

Basically if you aren't directly touched by the powerfist model and the powerfist model is engaged by a regular member of the unit, then your IC is safe from fisting in that round of combat.

*My further question is this. What happens if.. the powerfist model is not in base contact, and a regular guy is in base contact with the IC... HOWEVER.... during the regular intiative sequence the IC and his unit kill enough regular guys that there are no enemy models in base contact with the IC. Does this protect the IC? What I'm not sure is when you allocate your attacks, at the beginning of the phase or when your iniative timing occurs.

No, you determine which unit your models are eligible to fight against at the start of the combat and casualties do not change that in 5th edition.

Sazzlefrats wrote:There is also the other question, An IC must move to make contact with the enemy where possible. Does this mean I need to move the IC first and if he's trapped then he doesn't move, even if after I move the rest of the regular guys and later discover he can now move to engage, or does he move with the unit, so I move one regular guy out of the way, then move the ic and then the regular guys? i know he's treated independantly, or is it ok to move all the regular guys, then move the IC, even though the regular guys may be deliberatly be moved in such a way that the IC can't make base contact?

By the RAW you have to move the IC first. If his movement path is blocked by friendly models then he isn't getting into combat.

That said, the GOAL of the rule is clear (that the IC is supposed to be in base contact if at all possible) so, for example in the INAT FAQ we've ruled that you move the minimum number of models needed for the IC to get into contact before moving him in this case, as the rule is supposed to HELP (not hinder) ICs get into combat.

How can friendly models hinder your IC?
From my understanding you have to move your IC first - correct?

Example: You are in 6" and it´s your turn. So you have to move your IC first and in base to base with the opponents squad. So there seems to be no way your IC is blocked by your own troops. At least that´s what I think. The rule that you have to move the model nearest to the assaulted squad first is overwritten by the ICs rule isnt it?
However, I want my ICs in base to base in every assault for sure.

Thanks Yak and everyone else, You've cleared up my questions on melee combat.

I think that moving the minimum number of models so that the IC is able to reach combat is an excellent solution.

DaDok wrote:How can friendly models hinder your IC?
From my understanding you have to move your IC first - correct?

Example: You are in 6" and it´s your turn. So you have to move your IC first and in base to base with the opponents squad. So there seems to be no way your IC is blocked by your own troops. At least that´s what I think. The rule that you have to move the model nearest to the assaulted squad first is overwritten by the ICs rule isnt it?
However, I want my ICs in base to base in every assault for sure.

Only when reacting to an assault or pile-in moves. If your IC and unit is assaulting you may move the IC when ever you wish as long as you follow the normal assault rules.

SeattleDV8 wrote:

DaDok wrote:How can friendly models hinder your IC?
From my understanding you have to move your IC first - correct?

Example: You are in 6" and it´s your turn. So you have to move your IC first and in base to base with the opponents squad. So there seems to be no way your IC is blocked by your own troops. At least that´s what I think. The rule that you have to move the model nearest to the assaulted squad first is overwritten by the ICs rule isnt it?
However, I want my ICs in base to base in every assault for sure.

Only when reacting to an assault or pile-in moves. If your IC and unit is assaulting you may move the IC when ever you wish as long as you follow the normal assault rules.

Uhm, you have to move your IC first in any situations or not? So if you close in, react or assault you have to move your IC first. At least if I read the rules correct.
I accept the FAQ - no problem - but I´m eager to hear the arguement for the FAQ´ed thingy. Not that I´m one of those naysayers but I dislike the imagination to run into one of those in a tournament and aint able to stomp his IC.

DaDok, if you feel its likely to happen talk to the tournament organizer before the tournament. Whatever they agree upon with you becomes law.

All of my tournament games its never come up, but in casual play its come up twice. And without knowing what the Dakka FAQ on it was, we did exactly what the Dakka FAQ suggests.

DaDok,
No, the rules only say the IC moves first for React and Pile In, it mentions nothing about it for the initial assault.

So lets say your IC is fairly surrounded by the unit he is in, and they get assaulted. He has to React first, but is surrounded, and can't get to the enemy. That is how friendlies can get in the way.

Yeah I understand that point but react works like assault in terms of movement. So I thought you have to move your IC first in no matter if he´s in the middle of your squad or not.
Assault words you cant move through own models or through a break the base wouldnt fit through but than again IC "SR" overwrites that - I thought or well, still think.
Again, it´s not my intention to kick a senseless discussion off I just try to get a solid proofed base. But I will read the FAQ entry, maybe it makes the whole thing clear.

DaDok wrote:Yeah I understand that point but react works like assault in terms of movement. So I thought you have to move your IC first in no matter if he´s in the middle of your squad or not.
Assault words you cant move through own models or through a break the base wouldnt fit through but than again IC "SR" overwrites that - I thought or well, still think.
Again, it´s not my intention to kick a senseless discussion off I just try to get a solid proofed base. But I will read the FAQ entry, maybe it makes the whole thing clear.

There is no official FAQ covering this subject.

I was referring to the completely unofficial Adepticon (Independent National Tournament) FAQ which we are in the process of completing for this year's event right now.

The reason we have ruled the way we have is because of how this rule is written:

"When a unit is reacting to being assaulted, or making a pile-in move, independent characters that have joined the unit must move before other friendly models in order to get into base contact with an enemy if at all possible (otherwise they will not be able to fight). Using their own men as a screen in order to avoid the fight is a cowardly act, one that these great heroes would never consider!"


What does that rule actually say?

It says the character must move before other friendly models in order to get into base contact with the enemy if at all possible.

It does not say that he must move before any friendly models in the unit move.


So if you go to make pile-in/reaction moves with your unit and your character cannot get into base contact with the enemy, then he cannot follow the rule (as he cannot get into base contact with the enemy). But as soon as you've moved enough of your models to clear a path for him, then the rule compels you to immediately move the character into base contact with the enemy.