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Hey guys, just 2 quick questions.
1. Can a null rod (daemonhunters) stop an enemy librarians force barrier save if they are locked in assault?
2. Is ezekiel restricted to only using one psychic move a turn or can he use multiple, for example a force weapon then the force barrier save (havent got the codex on me atm)

Thanks

elochai wrote:Hey guys, just 2 quick questions.
1. Can a null rod (daemonhunters) stop an enemy librarians force barrier save if they are locked in assault?
2. Is ezekiel restricted to only using one psychic move a turn or can he use multiple, for example a force weapon then the force barrier save (havent got the codex on me atm)

The null rod is no use in this situation as Barrier is not effecting the Inqusitor.

And Ezekiel as no special abilties for extra powers, to be honest the rules there are pretty clear so I don't think you'll have trouble with that once you get back to your codex.

k thanks man

Hymirl wrote:

The null rod is no use in this situation as Barrier is not effecting the Inqusitor.

Uh, yes it is. A force barrier can potentially stop whatever attacks are being made by the Inquisitor and his unit and they are therefore most certainly affected by it.

A Null rod means that the Inquisitor and his unit are not affected at all by psychic powers, period. So in this case any attacks made by them could not be stopped by a Force Barrier, as it is a psychic power.

The point of contention will be whether the null rod is a passive or active psychic defense.

There's no need to worry about what the Null Rod is, but I'd assume it is passive. It lets the unit simply ignore enemy powers but also makes it impossible for them to use any psychic powers. Check the DH FAQ - even persistent powers like Psychic Scream and Veil of Tears are negated for the guys with the rod.

Funny how GW thinks VoT "affects" a guy with a Null Rod if it doesn't "affect" SoB squads, though. ;-)

well tyvm yak thats what i wanted to hear =)

so basically, the force barrier cannot be used if its locked into assault with a null rod

Where's the dividing line for "affects the Inquisitor or his unit"? Would an opponent still get the benefit of Warp Time or Quickening against the unit? I'm assuming that it wouldn't prevent the Librarian gaining Fleet, but what about the I10 part of the effect?

yakface wrote:

Hymirl wrote:The null rod is no use in this situation as Barrier is not effecting the Inqusitor.

Uh, yes it is. A force barrier can potentially stop whatever attacks are being made by the Inquisitor and his unit and they are therefore most certainly affected by it.

No. The power does not target the Inquistor nor include him in it's area of effect, so its not actually effecting the inquistor himself.

IF you hold the idea that any sort of effect on the game involving the inquistor is able to active the null rod's abilties then you open the door to all sorts of strange issues. Fortune on a seer council can potentially stop the attacks of the heavy bolter servitors in his unit so is the null rod going to reach out 36" across the table and shut that down?

Or a demon prince uses lash to move a unit of inqusition stormtroopers into the inquistior's path and pin them down preventing the inqusitor from charging an enemy unit next turn? That'll potentially stop whatever attacks the Inquisitor might make too? Its most certianaly havign some effect on the inquisitor's part in the battle so do you advocate that the null rod stops that too?

These two examples follow exactly the same logic you presented.
Clearly the only workable solution is to understand that the null rod only negates direct effects of psichic powers, if you go looking for any kind of secondary effect you just produce silly results. In this case force barrier is only effecting the libarian and is completely legal to use.

so basically, the force barrier cannot be used if its locked into assault with a null rod

Be aware of being too quick to believe the answer that sounds best.

Hymirl wrote:
No. The power does not target the Inquistor nor include him in it's area of effect, so its not actually effecting the inquistor himself.

IF you hold the idea that any sort of effect on the game involving the inquistor is able to active the null rod's abilties then you open the door to all sorts of strange issues. Fortune on a seer council can potentially stop the attacks of the heavy bolter servitors in his unit so is the null rod going to reach out 36" across the table and shut that down?

Or a demon prince uses lash to move a unit of inqusition stormtroopers into the inquistior's path and pin them down preventing the inqusitor from charging an enemy unit next turn? That'll potentially stop whatever attacks the Inquisitor might make too? Its most certianaly havign some effect on the inquisitor's part in the battle so do you advocate that the null rod stops that too?

These two examples follow exactly the same logic you presented.
Clearly the only workable solution is to understand that the null rod only negates direct effects of psichic powers, if you go looking for any kind of secondary effect you just produce silly results. In this case force barrier is only effecting the libarian and is completely legal to use.

The Null Rod is a very unique piece of anti-psyker wargear. It does not 'shut down' anything, it only allows the inquisitor and his unit to ignore any and all affects of a psychic power, but the power itself is not cancelled (it just does nothing to them). If there is a coherent way for the power to be ignored by the inquisitor and his unit, then it is.

The rule text is:

"No psychic powers whatsoever may affect the character with this item or the squad he has joined, regardless of source."


So if an Inquisitor shoots at a unit with Fortune they can go ahead and re-roll their saves, but the Inquisitor's shooting ignores that re-roll.

If an enemy psyker moves an enemy unit in front of the Inquisitor, well, there's no way I can think of for him to ignore that, so he can't. The important distinction is that the Null Rod does not cancel the power, it just allows the Inquisitor's unit (and only that unit) to ignore the effects of it.

"No psychic powers whatsoever may affect the character with this item or the squad he has joined, regardless of source."

I am sorry to have to disagree with you Yakface (I do respect your thinking on it)...but

Surely the Force barrier is not 'affecting' the Inquisitor or his squad. I mean they still get all their attacks, may still use their power weapons to "full" effect.
remember the use of such weapons to full effect is only on the owning player's side. The power weapon is still a power weapon and has not diminished in any way shape or form, it still ignores armor saves, and does not ignore invulnerable saves, so it is used to 'full' effect.

In fact as far as the inquisitor is concerned everything is on the up and up.

Going by the same logic you listed above yakface. The Inquisitor can still attack, shoot, and everything else he wants to do. But after that point it is out of his hands.

What I mean is: VoT, this 'affects' the inquisitor because it 'keeps' him from doing an action he wants to do, like shoot the eldar witches for their heresy.

Force Barrier and to the same extent Fortune, do not 'affect' him in any way, he can still shot, roll to wound, and gloat about all the wounds he caused. He got to do everything in his power to do, so in effect, was not 'affected' in any way.

Once it reaches the target, wounds are made, and again it is out of the inquisitors hands at that point, nothing at this point on will 'affect' the inquisitor.

Everything from the wound point on *only* effects the target, so I truly believe that Force barrier and powers like Fortune have are not effected by the null rod.

In fact, lol, the only thing that 'affected' the inquisitor is his (possible) inability to kill his target and get annoyed. Surely this is not what GW meant.

Ok, lets go back into the original question and ignore shooting as you cant do so in assault.

If the inquisitor is in close combat with a librarian, 1 on 1 to make it simple, the librarians force weapon doesn't work because of null rod, but seeing as the librarian is almost touching the null rod wouldn't that mean he cant use ANY psychic moves just out of logic? or is that not game-workshoppy enough

Stupid games workshop and their outdated grey knights >.<

yakface wrote:If an enemy psyker moves an enemy unit in front of the Inquisitor, well, there's no way I can think of for him to ignore that, so he can't. The important distinction is that the Null Rod does not cancel the power, it just allows the Inquisitor's unit (and only that unit) to ignore the effects of it.

No, this is where you are misreading the rules and presenting them backwards, it does not allow the inquistor to ignore the effects of anything. It prevents the power from effecting the inqusitor (and his unit).

The null rod is very specific, it doesn't provide any protection to the inqusitor's attacks in combat, or his bullets that fly across the table, nor even to his bruised ego at things not agreeably lieing down and diying. If its not affecting the inquisitor or his unit personally, the null rod will be as useful as a chocolate teapot. Therefore;

So if an Inquisitor shoots at a unit with Fortune they can go ahead and re-roll their saves, but the Inquisitor's shooting ignores that re-roll.

Re-examine the rule:
"No psychic powers whatsoever may affect the character with this item or the squad he has joined, regardless of source."

Where does this say no psychic powers may effect the character's shooting? It doesn't; therefore it won't.

If you chose to read it your way it would prevent any possible effects in the most undefined manner arguable, just like preventing units from being lashed into his path (they'd be required to be put somewhere else). You could take this to ridiclous length if you so chose, rg, "Sorry, you can't mind war that lascannon marine because if you do he can't shoot your vyper next turn and your vyper will kill my land raider, the terminators won't get to the objective to kill your guys and my inquistor will be unhappy, which is an affect on him."

elochai wrote:If the inquisitor is in close combat with a librarian, 1 on 1 to make it simple, the librarians force weapon doesn't work because of null rod, but seeing as the librarian is almost touching the null rod wouldn't that mean he cant use ANY psychic moves just out of logic? or is that not game-workshoppy enough

The null rod will protect the inquistor from the effects of the force weapon, but thats all it does. The null rod does not affect any models other than the inquistor himself, no matter how far away they are or not... thats not what its for.

Yet you seem to know its exact meaning. Did you write the codex?

I am fairly sure that a model getting a re-roll from a psychic power when shot at by an Inquisitor with a Null Rod is a psychic power effecting an Inquisitor. The power is effecting the Inquisitors ability to kill a target.

... ok i thought how this worked was simple ... it stops psychic powers from effecting the IC & Unit

these ether work (since they don't target them and only indirectly effect them) or fails (as they targets or/and directly effects them)

Eldar
Doom, Eldrich Storm, Mindwar, Destructor ... fails
Fortune, Guide, Conceal, embolden, Enhance ... work

SM
Smite, Avenger,Null Zone,vortex of doom,Machine Curse(if he's in a transport he's with it) ... fails
ForceDome, MightOfTheAncients, GateOfInfinity ... work

CSM
DoomBolt, GiftOfChaos,WindsOfChaos,LashOfSubmission,Nurgle'sRot,BoltOfChange ... fail
WarpTime ... works

(and thats all the codexs i've got near me)

InquisitorFabius wrote:Yet you seem to know its exact meaning. Did you write the codex?

I am fairly sure that a model getting a re-roll from a psychic power when shot at by an Inquisitor with a Null Rod is a psychic power effecting an Inquisitor. The power is effecting the Inquisitors ability to kill a target.

Are you serious?

InquisitorFabius wrote:Yet you seem to know its exact meaning. Did you write the codex?

No, I only read the codex.

I am fairly sure that a model getting a re-roll from a psychic power when shot at by an Inquisitor with a Null Rod is a psychic power effecting an Inquisitor. The power is effecting the Inquisitors ability to kill a target.

Well, you're wrong. The rule doesn't say anything about psyhic powers not being able to effect the Inquisitor's "ability to kill a target" if you'd like to point out where thats in the rule then by all means... but I think you won't be able to.

I note that you didn't comment on my example where the enemy uses lash on a different unit to prevent the inqusitor charging the following turn, or on using psychic powers to kill any model in the Inquistors army and potentially make the inqusitor lose the game?