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So the 3+ invulnerable save is sexy, but so are lightning claws.
Any reason I haven't seen many mix builds, like 3 LC & 3 ThSS?

I'm trying to decide on how to outfit my squad of 6.
Just a note, they'll be the only assault terminator squad in the army and will most likely be mounted in a LR Crusader in 1750+ games

I kind of like 1-2 LC termie max and all the rest stormshields. It gives you some oomph against troops, but more than enough TH/SS to punk everything else.

As sour said its nice to have a slight mix, I wouldent go with more then 1 or 2 of the lc though

On an assault, a pair of LC's will typically outkill TH/SS by about a 1/4 model each. So 5 termies with LCx2 will kill an average of 7.5 models vs. 6.25 for TH/SS. So either 7.5 typically simo, or 6.25 after you've taken what they have to throw at you and hope you roll well.
Though you also double your invuln save chance with the storm shields from 33% to 66% and your termies will surely draw a lot of fire.

1 Lightning claw per 3 SS/TH terminators is my current mix

So 1 at 5, 2 at 6+, 3 at 9+

I think that asugradinwa has the right idea. The thunder hammers provide protection, and the lightning claws provide initial damage that will reduce the losses that the terminators take because of their initiative -

Can you take Heavy Flamers on Assault Terminators? Surely that would help for a pre-charge kick.

I'm pretty sure that you cannot, sadly...

(Maybe Deathwing can though?)

storm knight wrote:Can you take Heavy Flamers on Assault Terminators? Surely that would help for a pre-charge kick.

Only if you play Dark Angels. For Codex: Space Marines, it's either the basic Terminators with shooting weapon options or the assault Terminators with the close combat weapon options, no mixing here.

I would probably take 2 in a squad of 7.

This might sound stupid but if you mix Terminators from the box set with one box of Assault terminators you have TH/SS for five guys and then you are stuck with Lightning Claws after that.

If you are running Vulkan though I think you are better off sticking to the TH/SS. The reroll puts them on par with LCs for the most part (T3 stuff being an exception I guess, been ahwile since I ran the numbers).

True. Thunderhammers are also better against cover, striking last anyway.

I don't see any apparent advantage to LCs over the hammer with the 3+.

G

Airmaniac wrote:

storm knight wrote:Can you take Heavy Flamers on Assault Terminators? Surely that would help for a pre-charge kick.

Only if you play Dark Angels. For Codex: Space Marines, it's either the basic Terminators with shooting weapon options or the assault Terminators with the close combat weapon options, no mixing here.

You can take one heavy flamer, but it's that or a cyclone or assault cannon, and both of those seem like better options to me.

I don't see any apparent advantage to LCs over the hammer with the 3+.

If all you ever fight is, say, MEqs, then LCs are better.

If you never get hit with AP2, then LCs are better.

Obviously the time will come when you do have to fight MCs, ICs or vehicles, or when you're shot with AP2. But is it often enough to not have a certain number of LCs in there? I'd say that most of the time it's going to be simple troops, and most of the time it's going to not be AP2. So I take more LCs than THs.

For regular SM terminators, I really can't see any advantage to lightning claws over thunder hammers. Black Templars terminators can get furious charge, which makes lightning claws much more attractive, but for SMs, I'd say that the 3++ save and the S8 attacks leads to far greater flexibility and usefulness.

I feel that Thunder Hammers are the better choice, especially if you have Vulkan in your army.

Currently for large games i am looking at a fighting block as follows: 6 Thunder Hammer Terminators + Redeemer dedicated, 5 Thunder Hammer Terminators + Vulkan + Redeemer non-dedicated. That forms a center block of the army for about 1160. Not cheap by any means, but a significant force to be sure. On the charge your 6 man unit is 18 attacks at Str 8 with 6 re-rolls on the attack with a 2+/3++ save to make sure they live to hit back.

Yeah there is no advantage to the claws anymore... The new and improved Space Marine storm shield saw to that.

G

What I've been doing with the claws is making sure that when I charge I generally have the claws charging any IC in the unit that has a power fist or power weapon at a lower inititive. Nothing like taking out the only weapon that ignores armor saves.

Thanks for the responses.
I think I'll build the six out with 2x LC & 4x Th/Ss
6 Power Weapon attacks that re-roll wounds at I4 followed by 8 stunning Thunder Hammer attacks seems the way to go. (sans charge bonus)
I don't need the Auto-kill vs smaller targets (like Plague Marines or other terminators) and I can still throw those Las/Melta/Plas wounds on the 4x 3+ inv

If you ever play against nob bikers you will wish you had gone 100% hammer time.

G

What armies other than 'Nob Biker' would the replacement of 2 thunder hammers with 2 lightning claws cause woe with?
(since the lightning claws denies FNP and re-rolls wounds)
The armies I mostly engage with are Tau, Orks (boyz mob), Chaos Marine (Khorne/Nurgle), Imp Guard (Mech), Marines (Mech with Inq), maybe Necrons when someone feels like borrowing my stuff

There is one advantage in taking a single Lightning Claw guy. If you take small arms fire, you can put an extra hit on him. If he fails three armour saves, you only lose one wound in the squad.

Or you can just be awesome and take the Thunder Hammers.

Smart that is... for large squads.

: )

G

I run the assault terminators with a chaplain and in a Pedro army. I like to include about 40% lightning claw termies in a unit. The extra attack from Pedro, reroll to hits and misses, really keeps hordes from pinning the unit down. Seer Councils and Legion of the Damned don't like the claws very much. Also if everyone goes really TH/SS happy in their marine lists, a good counter would be to have lots of LC's. LC's beat TH/SS one on one.

LC model takes save on 5+ from TH while TH takes save on 3+ from LC. TH is better.

G

I disagree that TH/SS termies are better than LCx2 termies.
If you had two termie squads of 6 each, one with all LCx2 and the other with all TH/SS. I'll use assault kill rates for the whole example and both sides because it nets whole models lost each round and adds to the clarity. Those rates are 0.51 per LC model, 0.83 per TH model. For completeness, the base attack rates are 0.38 for LC models and 0.55 for TH models (if you want to calculate this out).

The LC's would take out 3 models at I4, leaving 3 TH to attack back. Granted, they would take out 2 models in return.
The second round, the LC's would take out another 2 models leaving 1 TH to attack back. In return the remaining TH model would take out 0.83 models so if it rolls well, it may take out 1 model. I'll be generous.
Models still standing are 3 LC models to 1 TH/SS model.
The next round the TH is gone leaving 3 LC models.

And remember, making TH master-crafted only works for a single re-roll per model per turn. It does make the end result closer, but still leaving 1-2 LC models on the table after the last TH is removed.

pavonis wrote:I disagree that TH/SS termies are better than LCx2 termies.
If you had two termie squads of 6 each, one with all LCx2 and the other with all TH/SS. I'll use assault kill rates for the whole example and both sides because it nets whole models lost each round and adds to the clarity. Those rates are 0.51 per LC model, 0.83 per TH model. For completeness, the base attack rates are 0.38 for LC models and 0.55 for TH models (if you want to calculate this out).

The LC's would take out 3 models at I4, leaving 3 TH to attack back. Granted, they would take out 2 models in return.
The second round, the LC's would take out another 2 models leaving 1 TH to attack back. In return the remaining TH model would take out 0.83 models so if it rolls well, it may take out 1 model. I'll be generous.
Models still standing are 3 LC models to 1 TH/SS model.
The next round the TH is gone leaving 3 LC models.

And remember, making TH master-crafted only works for a single re-roll per model per turn. It does make the end result closer, but still leaving 1-2 LC models on the table after the last TH is removed.

Now what does it calculate out too with those LC terminators running into a squad of Nob bikers with two wounds each? Or Wraithlord with toughness 8? The strength 8 attacks of the TH terminators are not going to be especially efficient against run of the mill troops (tough 4, 1 wound, standard armor) but do shine against big tough opponents, while being nearly as good as the LC terminators for run of the mill troops.

That's why you pie plate them before assaulting. But yes, I definately see the benefits of the TH/SS combo. I think going pure TH or pure LC is not the best way to run them.
I usually run mine in squads of 5 with 3xLC 2xTH/SS. But this discussion has convinced me I should up it to 6 man with 3 and 3. Or run them in support of a shooty unit like Sternguard or other high strength weapon unit.

Id compliment the addition of those LC's with a I4+ IC. Having to wait till I1 can be a pain annd against those wraithlords & fexes, just one TH will make them wary, let alone 4/5 of the squad. 2 with 6 and IC support. Its all about gutting enough guys so the remaining attacks can be given to the fewer bunch with SS (assuming its power wep/MC time, otherwise allocate wounds as the game permits)

High strength support unit.. why do I never hear scout snipers; thier scoring, cheaper, ranged and provide exactly anti-troop support. Incl those fexes and wraithlords.