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There is a difference between thinking someone's idea of game balance is bad and blaming that persons attempt at game balance with destroying 40k. 40k was declining long before INAT was a thing.

Criticism is fine when its constructive. That wasn't constructive.

 Grey Templar wrote:
There is a difference between thinking someone's idea of game balance is bad and blaming that persons attempt at game balance with destroying 40k. 40k was declining long before INAT was a thing.

Criticism is fine when its constructive. That wasn't constructive.

Yeah, 40k's decline sure as gak isn't due to some group trying to make an actual game out of it, it's to due with the company trying to bleed its customers for every nickel and dime they could, and the customers being plain sick of it. But I suppose that's a different conversation...however, to this conversation, saying yakface is to blame for part of 40k's demise, without backing it up whatsoever, is the equivalent of "I don't like him because he's stupid."

I didn't realize that my own personal opinions required public explanation. I will say this.. Yakface along with guys like the Iron Fist League and other WAAC groups were the reason there's even an acronym for WAAC. Before Yakface had anything to do with some league that I don't know or care about, he was writing articles about "tactics" which were really just beardy loopholes in the rules that started people down a path of looking to exploit the game and metagame rather than simply playing the game. You can argue that as much as you like but I played through it and saw the change.


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 the_Armyman wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
Eh, I decided not to back after all. I personally blame Yakface for a portion of 40k's decline.. so I'm not eager to play rules written by him, I'm not overly fond of the sculpts, and the spammy nature of the advertising have all come together to pull me away from my original decision to throw in on this.

There's this guy who owns a website. He doesn't ask for a dime, he staffs it with good mods, and seems a decent enough fellow. Him and a couple of guys from the website develop a game for a few years, are looking to bring it to market, and want to advertise on their own website. Again, doesn't cost you a thing to ignore the adverts.

Instead of being a decent human being and simply going on your way, you invite yourself onto this guy's website, prop your feet up, insult him, and then smile while you figuratively poke a stick in his eye. From one human being to another: what sort of things are going on in your life that makes you this type of person? I pity you, Mlaw.

Yeah sure, I propped my feet up, shot his dog, drank his booze, had my way with his wife and daughter, and then burned the house down. This is melodrama in high form pal. It's a public forum. Do you even understand what a forum is? I'm pretty sure this site is not the Yakface fanboy site. Likewise, since this really is just a place for people to come and talk and some business owners to advertise, I don't see how you could be inclined to think I owe Yakface anything. This site is all user-created content.. the only people who do owe him anything are the people who have advertised here.

Whatever the case, my life is actually pretty amazing and I don't know what made you into a blind, judgemental sheep who jumps to conclusions but I pity you.

So you dislike Yakface because he and a bunch of other guys tried to make 40k a balanced game?

Its fine to have your own opinions, but its a pretty petty one. Its even pettier to extrapolate that into an unrelated endeavor. Of course you aren't obligated to support MEdge, but spouting criticism of the game because you have a personal grudge against one of the developers is childish. At least you could withhold judgement till you've seen the ruleset.

They can promote their game as much as they want. I don't have a problem with it and they even said it was just temporary and apologized for crying out loud.

If you don't like it then leave. Other sites would be dropping the ban hammer left and right on the whiners. But, dakka is cool is like that, so you all should be happy they are even indulging your arguments

Ok, this sniping back and forth has to ease up now that we have started veering well towards (and almost going past) breaking rule #1. I'd rather not have to hand any warnings out.

Feel free to disagree with either the pro-ME or anti-ME side. Make good arguments, fine. But characterising one side as just 'having a bitch fest', "blind judgmental sheep", or saying "just get out of this site already" is hardly how you have an honest argument. Even when we disagree strongly, we should at least try and maintain a facade of politeness.

 MLaw wrote:
I didn't realize that my own personal opinions required public explanation. I will say this.. Yakface along with guys like the Iron Fist League and other WAAC groups were the reason there's even an acronym for WAAC. Before Yakface had anything to do with some league that I don't know or care about, he was writing articles about "tactics" which were really just beardy loopholes in the rules that started people down a path of looking to exploit the game and metagame rather than simply playing the game. You can argue that as much as you like but I played through it and saw the change.

Yakface is personally responsible for the concept of min/max lists in a wargame? Hot damn. I managed to do those when I started playing LOTR back in 2002/3. He must have been secretly psychically influencing me or something, even then.

My eyes have been opened!

Back on subject, I think the batrep would have benefited from some clearer icons, but I've seen and enjoyed less well laid out batreps online. So there's nothing stopping me from doing it here.

As I understand it, the rules are in beta and will be opened up for wider scale playtesting once the Kickstarter has closed.

Guys, no worries. If someone isn't interested in MEdge because of my involvement (for whatever reason), then it is fine for them to express that opinion, exactly the same as if someone was interested in MEdge because of my involvement.

I do not take any offense from MLaw's opinion. Although I may not agree with his perspective of what I could have been possibly able to have influenced one way or another in the past, I'm fine with him having those opinions and expressing them here. And I'd actually love to sit down and hear the full tale over a beer sometime of how those opinions came to be formed (maybe someday).

keltikhoa wrote:About the batrep.

It sounds like a fun game. I can not wait to try the beta rules.
The one issue I see however is at the end of this single turn batrep you are at 36 suppression tokens on the field, 24 on the karist - 12 on EC. If you are only able to remove suppression at a rate of 1d3 per unit or 1-1 command points(gained in very low amounts per turn), both sides are going to be vastly overwhelmed by suppression in a very short time and winner will be determined by who gets the lucky auto success roll when trying to activate their unit.
does failing the roll to activate a unit due to suppression still allow you to shake some suppression?

This makes me think that the later game turns devolve playing a game with suppression tokens instead of models.

Grey Templar wrote:I also noticed that. Thats gonna need some playtesting for sure. Maybe add a cap, realistically there is probably a point where a few more bullets aren't making a ton of difference.

Mathieu Raymond wrote:I haven't seen the batrep, because of work, but I remember playing Stargrunt and that was all there was to it. We never could wound or kill, just add more suppression, and it would never go away, so we became bunked in our respective positions and couldn't do anything.

If you fail an activation discipline check, then you'll automatically get to shake-off an extra D3 suppression, no matter what (2D3). Then on top of that, if the unit is pinned as part of the action where it fails that activation discipline check, then you shake-off an extra D3 suppression on top of that (so 3D3).

Combine this with the fact that you generate more command points as the game goes on (equal to the turn number), and that means you're generally able to save those command points to use for ST removal if you really feel the need.

So in testing, suppression builds up until it reaches a critical point and you fail your activation discipline check, but then the 2D3 or 3D3 shake-off usually takes care quite a bit of that (as long as you don't roll horribly), which means a unit tends to only lose 1 turn of optimal activation because they fail their activation discipline check unless the enemy continues to make a point to suppress them.

It seems to have been pretty balanced up to this point, but there is definitely still room to tweak it if that's found not to be the case by most players.

I won't be backing for a few reasons.

Firstly, for me, the setting doesn't distinguish itself from other settings. The 'Maelstrom' seems too much like the 'Eye of Terror'. There's nothing really new or innovative about the fluff to interest me.

Secondly, I've had a read through the game mechanics and the suppression tokens seem like they would become really fiddly. The game seems to be heavily built around this mechanic therefore it's a deal breaker for me. In comparison Infinity is based around AROs which is an innovative and interesting rule. There doesn't seem to be much new and exciting here rules-wise either.

Finally the models are, again, very generic sci-fi and seem a little dated, like a 1980s sci-fi setting. If this is what you were going for, fair enough, but it doesn't appeal.

Having said all of that I wish Yakface et al the best of luck with this, and after the very successful kickstarter it seems like my opinion is very much in a minority.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
The 'Maelstrom' seems too much like the 'Eye of Terror'. There's nothing really new or innovative about the fluff to interest me.

Thanks for your thoughts, though I did want to jump on this one point as our background is getting a bit buried by the huge volume of additional content we've put out since the start. The Maelstrom is very different from the eye of terror. It is not an alternate dimension filled with monsters, it is a galactic scale explosion, blasting out from the heart of humanity's old galactic centre, and completely destroying everything it touches (like antimatter meeting matter). The Maelstrom is not some point in the galaxy where bad stuff happens, it is rapidly expanding out, and threatens everything with destruction, forcing all who remain into a smaller and smaller space as they flee towards the edge of the galactic disk, fighting over remaining resources and making moral choices that would have been unthinkable before the Maelstrom erupted.

Today's update features our latest diorama, in which Karists hold an Epirian workshop.

That's some lovely work, right there.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Secondly, I've had a read through the game mechanics and the suppression tokens seem like they would become really fiddly. The game seems to be heavily built around this mechanic therefore it's a deal breaker for me. In comparison Infinity is based around AROs which is an innovative and interesting rule. There doesn't seem to be much new and exciting here rules-wise either.

Finally the models are, again, very generic sci-fi and seem a little dated, like a 1980s sci-fi setting. If this is what you were going for, fair enough, but it doesn't appeal.

Although I kind of agree with the scifi model looks myself, I did back. However I like to back smaller Kickstarter endeavors like this, even if I may or may not play as I can always sell or kitbash afterwards. I think the terrain sprue though is pretty awesome as there aren't a lot of terrain mod pieces through other areas. I think right there they have a market on their own, if they stick to plastic, that allows modifications to existing terrain, simple boxes to make them better looking.

I am a bit skeptical of the suppression mechanic, I wouldn't exactly call it fiddly though. To be fair a lot of people though Infinity AROs are fiddly, too rules thick when it first came out. After awhile of people understanding the flow of game play better, becoming refined and explained better it is now seen as a simple, fun system and fairly quickplay system. I'm more in the, I'll wait and see camp. Admittedly I could play a few games based on what has been released so far, but I haven't had time to play it out.

"Your breaks been over for five minutes. Git your lazy butt up!" Storms off ranting about how he wishes he'd joined the imperial guard and how he could have been a commissar and been given a promotion for shooting the lazy lookout.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
I won't be backing for a few reasons.

Firstly, for me, the setting doesn't distinguish itself from other settings. The 'Maelstrom' seems too much like the 'Eye of Terror'. There's nothing really new or innovative about the fluff to interest me.

Secondly, I've had a read through the game mechanics and the suppression tokens seem like they would become really fiddly. The game seems to be heavily built around this mechanic therefore it's a deal breaker for me. In comparison Infinity is based around AROs which is an innovative and interesting rule. There doesn't seem to be much new and exciting here rules-wise either.

Finally the models are, again, very generic sci-fi and seem a little dated, like a 1980s sci-fi setting. If this is what you were going for, fair enough, but it doesn't appeal.

Having said all of that I wish Yakface et al the best of luck with this, and after the very successful kickstarter it seems like my opinion is very much in a minority.

I don't know if you ever played Warhammer epic 40k, but that game had suppression tokens, and IMO, in no way did it detract from the playing experience.

 Spiral Arm Studios wrote:

If you fail an activation discipline check, then you'll automatically get to shake-off an extra D3 suppression, no matter what (2D3). Then on top of that, if the unit is pinned as part of the action where it fails that activation discipline check, then you shake-off an extra D3 suppression on top of that (so 3D3).

Combine this with the fact that you generate more command points as the game goes on (equal to the turn number), and that means you're generally able to save those command points to use for ST removal if you really feel the need.

So in testing, suppression builds up until it reaches a critical point and you fail your activation discipline check, but then the 2D3 or 3D3 shake-off usually takes care quite a bit of that (as long as you don't roll horribly), which means a unit tends to only lose 1 turn of optimal activation because they fail their activation discipline check unless the enemy continues to make a point to suppress them.

It seems to have been pretty balanced up to this point, but there is definitely still room to tweak it if that's found not to be the case by most players.

Ok that sounds better. I had read the sample rules PDF and do not remember seeing the part about shaking of the extra 1-2D3 for failed activation.
Still eager to get some proxy games with these rules going. Do you have an estimate yet on when the beta rules will be available?

45k

Grats on 45K, fellas, Free terrain sprues for everyone!

Yesssss

Nice one! Can't wait to cover my gaming board in ME terrain goodness, I love that it encourages players to make their own designs .

Woohoo, congrats on the terrain sprue unlock! Fantastic progress today

 Dark Severance wrote:

I am a bit skeptical of the suppression mechanic, I wouldn't exactly call it fiddly though. To be fair a lot of people though Infinity AROs are fiddly, too rules thick when it first came out. After awhile of people understanding the flow of game play better, becoming refined and explained better it is now seen as a simple, fun system and fairly quickplay system. I'm more in the, I'll wait and see camp. Admittedly I could play a few games based on what has been released so far, but I haven't had time to play it out.

I think my post came across as overly negative. I was trying to be constructive in order to [hopefully] help the game become a success. I'm pretty much the target audience, having got out of 40k and looking for an alternative.

What I'm trying to say is that, for me, the game doesn't have a USP. Again, comparing this to Infinity [which may or may not be a valid comparison in the opinion of those on this forum, but to me is a valid comparison] Infinity has a number of clear USPs, particularly in regard to AROs - 'It's Always Your Turn'. The anime look of the models is pretty original when applied to a tabletop wargame, and the fluff, while not to everyone's taste, is a welcome departure from a dystopian future to a utopian future. What makes Maelstrom's Edge stand out from the crowd? Perhaps that's something for the developers to think about.

Again, best of luck with this.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
What makes Maelstrom's Edge stand out from the crowd?

For me personally, it's the scope of the game.

One of the things that has kept me coming back to 40K for so long is the fact that you can play bigger games with it. Skirmish games with a dozen or fewer models can be ok (I still love me some Necromunda periodically) but they scratch a different itch.

MEdge isn't aimed at anything like Apocalypse, but it still runs bigger forces than most of the skirmish games I've seen... and that's a really big plus for me.


Suppression does seem a little complex at a quick glance, but from the demo game that I played some time ago it's quite intuitive once you get going, and it really does add a nice tactical element to the game. This is a system that really rewards you for thinking about the best way to dig out those enemy troops... and punishes you for being impatient and rushing in.

Yeah, things I love:

-All plastic, multi-part sprues.
-Arcs + Suppression.
-That it's got a hugely developed background to it, something most new wargames completely lack (and is 40k's biggest draw to me), this is a world that has such scope and appears to be very well rounded.

Can't think of any other game that has all 3 of these, particularly at this model count.

The suppression concept is one idea I really like in Medge. Combined with the fact as far as I hear flaking is actually important could make for a very interesting game for me. Also the model count seems to be around the 40-60 count rather than the 60-100+ count is also good.

Sadly however the only models I really like are the Karist troops (Sans the shoulder pads) and the terrain sprue. Meaning the box set just wouldn't be good value for me. However both of these armies are generic enough that if I buy the PDF rules I can easily replace them with Sci Fi models that are more too my preference.

I also really hope the tokens are available as a stand alone purchase once this reaches retail almost purely for the Supression tokens they are a very nice way of showing suppression in my mind and they are 3d tokens which actually add to the aestetic of the game instead of taking away from it.

I don't know enough about the background to really judge yet but nothing about what I have seen has wowed me. But nor has it made me cringe and go wtf were they thinking either.

Maelstrom's Edge will be one of very few hard plastic sci-fi ranges out there that is what I'd consider a baseline sci-fi game.

40k is Gothic Counter-Reformation Sci-Fantasy.
Mantic is Sci-Fantasy with Corporate social Darwinism replacing the Gothic Catholicism.
Dreamforge is science fiction, but you'd better be into Space Germans. So far. (I'm really looking forward to the Shadokesh line that's coming.)

I think there's plenty of room and potential for a baseline sci-fi game like ME in a field like that. And by "baseline" I don't mean "generic," "bland," etc., but to each their own. As far as my taste goes, the Epirians are generic but usefully so, while the Karists are a unique blend of Stormtroopers supported by Lovecraftian beasties, and I'm all over that.

If you look beyond hard plastic at metal or resin miniatures, of course, there are many other product lines out there. But generally speaking I'm not looking to buy miniatures in those materials.

Just on these ads, I notice the option to hide them now (THANK YOU (not that it is working for me))

I did see this though, which probably explained some of the abject hate about it (while not logged in);

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The whole constant it is too much like 40k is getting well annoying, i can go and say the corporations are like the early warzone games, or void or related to many other out of print or small miniature games, the point is that certain tropes have been (over)used in wargaming (and SF). So it doesn't bother me that much (would be nice if the Medge universe had Bolo tanks though )

So now with all the accusations of dakkadakka conspiracies, with fan boys, white knights, there is a new moniker? Dakkaknights or Medgeboyz?