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tneva82 wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
I suspect you never experienced Rhino rush . If you had, you would realize there were no real drawbacks with facing. It was all very easy to mitigate.

Well yes if front and rear were same effect was reduced(though you still exposed rear...when before whether opponent shot at front or side it was same so there was no benefit from moving into side. If rhino is side way that flanker now hits rear).

But rhino is obviously every vehicle in the game. There's no chimeras with 12/10/10, no leman russ with 14/12/10. Nooooo! There's only rhino's. Yes! That's it! Makes absolutely sense...NOT!

You really don't see difference? Before most of vehicles(even rhinos) had SOME drawback. Now there's NO DRAWBACK WHATSOEVER! In otherwords if you don't move them sideways in 8th ed you are basically fool.

1. Just chill and go easy on the caps. We're discussing playing with little plastic soldier dudes, after all.

2. Facing was an abstraction to the game that I believe didnt really make that much sense (charge a Leman Russ head on, extend your arm all the way to the back to punch it's rear?) and would certainly cause arguments over which facing is being viewed at times. Eliminating this streamlines the game.

3. Would you rather have Monstrous Creatures and infantry worry about their facing and firing arcs too? Does anyone get mad when a Terminator moon walks or fires an Assault Cannon out the back of his head? I'm happy to worry about this level of detail in smaller games like Infinity and SW:A, but certainly not with 100+ models on the table. But that would be the "realistic" way to do it.

4. Vehicles have been quite vulnerable and easy to kill since the introduction of hull points, and the transition to wounds is not going to break them either, since multi wound weapons will exist. Maybe your argument would hold water in prior editions. Vehicles being easier to hurt when hit fro the side or behind was yet another weakness they suffered and weren't generally thought of as the most competitive choices unless they're free (Gladius), and vehicles often get abused by deepstriking units, so come turn 2 protecting your weak facings generally can't happen.

5. Sideways moving vehicles isn't even that big of a deal, seeing as so many skimmers are out there. Again, your viewpoint is particularly punishing towards IG and Orks, who very much depend on grounded vehicles to succeed.

6. Minor nitpick, but Leman Russes have been AV 13 for how many years now? Really, side armor has been equal or almost equal to front armor for most vehicles, besides the paper-thin Chimera chassis tanks like you mentioned, which really don't deserve to be picked on for being too tough or moving out of position in almost all cases. You're fighting tooth and nail for what often only amounts to a difference of 1 in AV.

7. With the change from AV to toughness, does it really even matter? It's going to be easier to wound vehicles no matter where you're facing it. Leman Russes and Land Raiders are not going to be T 14, just as Dreadnoughts are not T 13. You don't need to flank to have a chance of hurting vehicles anymore, so be happy with that.

No explodes for vehicles it seems, which is good.

I can see dreadnoughts not degrading until the last few wounds.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/07/new-warhammer-40000-big-stuff-may7gw-homepage-post-4/


New Warhammer 40,000: Large Models


Today we take a look at the biggest models in the game, and how they’re going to work in the new edition.

There are a few big changes here, though we covered some of them a little when we looked at profiles. Like the three units we’ve seen already, every model will be using the same profile system, so everything will have Wounds, Toughness, Strength, etc… This includes all vehicles.

We’ve also gotten rid of specific rules for Gargantuan Creatures and Super-heavy vehicles. Instead, these units will have a suitably impressive statline, but still play by the same rules as everyone else. This also means that those units that previously sat just shy of Super-heavy status, and missed out on bunch of special rules because of it, will now be appropriately killy and durable.



You’ll soon see that some of Warhammer 40,000’s biggest hitters have A LOT of Wounds, high Toughness and a good save. The biggest Tyranid monsters now have over a dozen wounds, where Imperial Knights have over 20!

This makes them almost infinitely survivable against small arms fire, but means that high-power weapons that can take chunks of wounds off at a time (lascannons, powerfists, battle cannons, etc) can take them down relatively quickly when brought to bear in force. Gone are the days of a lucky first-turn meltagun blowing up your Land Raider. (A squad of them will still ruin its day though…)

There are almost no weapons in the game now that can instantly kill these big guys, so there will be no shortcuts to dealing with them – you have to get your hands dirty and take those Wounds off.



This can make big models very powerful, but there is a counter mechanic in the rules. As these large, powerful models take damage, their combat effectiveness starts to degrade. The best way to show you this is with an example.

Here we have a Mork(or possibly Gork)anaut (as requested by Stacy from our Warhammer 40,000 Facebook page):



Whoa, so – with 18 Wounds at Toughness 8, this guy is a tough cookie to crack – able to wade through bolter fire untroubled and requiring a lot of heavy weapons shots to take down.

You can see, though, as it gets to the point of only having half its Wounds left, this walker starts to get less effective – it will move slower and its attacks will get more clumsy as servos are fused, and sensor arrays fail to register.

At 4 Wounds left, it’s all but crippled, though its shooting output will be undiminished – so it starts as a combat wrecking ball at the beginning of the battle, crashing through enemy lines, and ends up as more of a semi-mobile shooting fortress at the end of its life.

Different vehicles will be reduced in effectiveness in different ways too – some will get worse at shooting, some will slow down, and some some will become less effective in melee.

So, the big stuff sounds pretty scary!

We’ll be back tomorrow with some good news for the little guys, when we look at how infantry work, and how combined firepower can be used to topple even the mightiest foes.

All of a sudden that Morkanaut starts to look out good.

Morkanaut profile:

Interesting. I'm going to go on a limb and say comparing the Dreadnought rules to the Morkanaut rules we just saw, Dreadnoughts might not degrade at all from wounds lost. That would be pretty exciting, and a definite upgrade.

I also did a bit of mathhammer for damage; that Morkanaut requires ~13.89 lascannon shots to kill on average (assuming 3+ to hit), which is about 9.26 hits. By comparison, it'd currently take 10.38 BS4 shots to kill today, or 6.92 hits; in other words, it's a third more survivable on average against lascannons, with no chance to instantly explode.

As before, it's really going to come down to what they've done with melta and grav. Those were the major threats before, and it'll be interesting to see how they compare. On the surface, vehicles look substantially more durable at least.

20+ Wounds on an Imperial Knight? Yes!

It looks like they are fully aware of one of the issues of 7e vehicles.

Potentially, maybe... but it would seem odd if Dreadnought don't degrade while Rhinos do (assuming, of course, Rhinos degrade).

Or that a Carnifex degrades but a Dreadnought doesn't.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Potentially, maybe... but it would seem odd if Dreadnought don't degrade while Rhinos do (assuming, of course, Rhinos degrade).

Or that a Carnifex degrades but a Dreadnought doesn't.

It can probably be inferred that things with 10 or less wounds don't degrade because they're simple enough to kill with heavy weapons already.

Hardly guaranteed, but the lack of red asterisk stats on Dreadnoughts leans that way.

I assume the Morkanaught profile gives us a pretty good indication of how models will degrade. I wouldn't be surprised if non-walkers lost the ability to shoot weapons as they got weaker or lost BS as they take wounds intead of attacks.

Oh my, this has me excited!

I wonder how many wounds a Monolith will have, and also how many a Obelisk will have? Holy moly!

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Potentially, maybe... but it would seem odd if Dreadnought don't degrade while Rhinos do (assuming, of course, Rhinos degrade).

Or that a Carnifex degrades but a Dreadnought doesn't.

a Rhino has almost nothing going for it to lose. Reduced speed and that is about it. Losing accuracy on a stupid Storm Bolter is really not much of a drawback.

It appears to be the bigger models in the lines. So a Wraithknight and possibly Wraithlord for Eldar. The Monolith and Tessaract Vault for Necrons. Baneblades for Imperial Guard. Orkonaughts and Stompas for Orks. Land Raiders for Space Marines. Imperial Knights. And so on.

It is possible that the Dreadnought statline we saw earlier was not the complete statline though.

did anyone noticed gorkanaut got an update? he is faster now ^^

Anyone else worried a bit about wound spam with vehicles after that?

 aracersss wrote:
did anyone noticed gorkanaut got an update? he is faster now ^^

The movement speeds are different on a lot of stuff. The Dreadnought is faster as well. Terminators are slower.

On a side note, who here is looking at that big vehicle in their collection that never saw use and is thinking to themselves "It's time!"? I am having trouble debating whether I want to use a Land Raider Crusader or the Space Marine HQ Command Tanks to tote Pedro Kantor around.

More likely that Dreads, Rhinos ect will all degrade as they take damage but the wound brackets will be smaller than something like a IK or Morkanaut. As well as degrading in there own ways.

Edit- Forgot about the lack of asterisk values on the Dread profile. Either GW only showed the optimal profile so as not to ruin the reveal(but then why not use some other unit instead?), the Dread fights at full effectiveness until killed, or it degrades in some way that doesn't affect its stat line.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
More likely that Dreads, Rhinos ect will all degrade as they take damage but the wound brackets will be smaller than something like a IK or Morkanaut. As well as degrading in there own ways.

As well as less numerous brackets I'm guessing. It'll likely be just a one step degredation for <10 wounds.

 warboss wrote:
Anyone else worried a bit about wound spam with vehicles after that?

No.

Points.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Anyone else worried a bit about wound spam with vehicles after that?

No.

Points.

Exactly. Even if these units remain the same in points, they are finally worth them.

 warboss wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
More likely that Dreads, Rhinos ect will all degrade as they take damage but the wound brackets will be smaller than something like a IK or Morkanaut. As well as degrading in there own ways.

As well as less numerous brackets I'm guessing. It'll likely be just a one step degredation for <10 wounds.

I am in complete agreement with Warboss. I'd imagine that with a base of 8 wounds, a Dreadnought may suffer somewhat once it hits maybe 3 wounds left.

I'm sure almost every vehicle that had 3 HP or more will have some sort of damage bracket. I am not terribly sure about particularly small vehicles like Sentinels, however. If they're like 5 wounds or something, there wouldn't be much room to divide into brackets.

Yay! My Morkanaut gets to fight now! He should be much more resilient now. Let's just hope his KFF still works well.

 warboss wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
More likely that Dreads, Rhinos ect will all degrade as they take damage but the wound brackets will be smaller than something like a IK or Morkanaut. As well as degrading in there own ways.

As well as less numerous brackets I'm guessing. It'll likely be just a one step degredation for <10 wounds.

Quite possibly and units with more wounds like IK and Stompas could have more than three as well. Along with the individually tailored damage/degradation effects it looks like a good system to give bigger models more character.

Just to clarify, several; people pointed out that Blue Horrors were free when they are created by killing Pink Horrors. If they were talking about AOS matched play then I think they were in error. In AOS matched play, existing units that replenish their own troops do this for free, but creating completely new units costs points. When Pink Horrors die, the Blue Horrors that are created form their own unit. The loophole is that if you have a Blue Horror unit within (I think) 8 inches, then they may join that one. So the only way to get free Blue Horrors is to buy a Blue Horror unit for every Pink Horror unit have the Blues follow the Pinks around the board. And while you're at it, blues split too, so buy a Brimstone Horror unit to follow each Blue.

The Morkanaught stats look great! And if this indicates that smaller vehicles and monsters won't deteriorate as much or at all then this will do wonders for all those vehicles that have been shafted for years by the rules. Maybe I will have my armoured company after all!

Yeah, occasionally there are things that just become problematic mechanics in a game, but far more often, you get things where 90%+ of the problem is (in)effectiveness compared to cost.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Anyone else worried a bit about wound spam with vehicles after that?

No.

Points.

Exactly. Even if these units remain the same in points, they are finally worth them.

Knights were worth their points according to most folks on dakka and that was before the additional durability this offers. My gut tells me that for superheavies they may have swung the pendulum too far with 15+ wounds for relatively small LOW options unless they're increased in points. I'll reserve final judgement for when I see the full rules but just the lascannon and superheavy already previewed interactions are worriesome. Ymmv.

 warboss wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Anyone else worried a bit about wound spam with vehicles after that?

No.

Points.

Exactly. Even if these units remain the same in points, they are finally worth them.

Knights were worth their points according to most folks on dakka and that was before the additional durability this offers. My gut tells me that for superheavies they may have swung the pendulum too far with 15+ wounds for relatively small LOW options unless they're increased in points. I'll reserve final judgement for when I see the full rules but just the lascannon and superheavy already previewed interactions are worriesome. Ymmv.

You will be able to strip wounds at lightning speed though. Works the same way in AoS with 15+ wound models. They go down quick with focused attention just like anything else.

 warboss wrote:
Knights were worth their points according to most folks on dakka and that was before the additional durability this offers. My gut tells me that for superheavies they may have swung the pendulum too far with 15+ wounds for relatively small LOW options unless they're increased in points. I'll reserve final judgement for when I see the full rules but just the lascannon and superheavy already previewed interactions are worriesome. Ymmv.

We don't know that Knights will be any more durable against the things which threaten them at thew moment. It's also worth noting that if a knight has 21 wounds at T8, or a weaker ion shield it may well end up effectively weaker vs heavy weapons due to the damage stat. Considering Wraithknights and Imperial Knights are the most common targets of complaints when it comes to superheavies, I really doubt they'd be making them stronger; at least, not without a proportional points increase. Also, one of the things which made them so good in combat was stomp having that silly "auto remove" 6 roll under a small blast - that has to change, because small blasts aren't in the game any more. I'd wait to see more before panicking, though you're definitely right that it's a concern.

Seems a bit superfluous to degrade both WS and A since both affect the same thing, number of hits in melee. Could just degrade one or the other at a faster rate.

With the removal of templates and the loss of armor facings, it seems the game is headed in a direction where positioning is less relevant. That is a shame, especially for something posturing as a wargame. I always thought assaulting a vehicle and always using its rear armor was stupid, but instead of allowing units to move along the hull to attack the weaker side, GW just hamfisted the rule to say you had to charge the nearest facing instead. And count it as the rear. Because.

Now it doesn't matter anyway because vehicles have wounds, even though hull points were stupid. Instead of adjusting the vehicle damage table to make things more reasonable, now we can take a lesson in bookkeeping while every unit on the table is nothing more than a glorified bean counter of different strength. I think some of the excitement will wain once people realize how little fun it is trying to take out enemy vehicles. But hey, that's what the community wanted, right?

I found some of the early changes mentioned intriguing but I don't see anything yet we will port into our version of the game. Some things we already do (like allow pistols a single close combat attack) but for the most part it seems like another lateral shift. Hope it works out, regardless.

 Rezyn wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Anyone else worried a bit about wound spam with vehicles after that?

No.

Points.

Exactly. Even if these units remain the same in points, they are finally worth them.

Knights were worth their points according to most folks on dakka and that was before the additional durability this offers. My gut tells me that for superheavies they may have swung the pendulum too far with 15+ wounds for relatively small LOW options unless they're increased in points. I'll reserve final judgement for when I see the full rules but just the lascannon and superheavy already previewed interactions are worriesome. Ymmv.

You will be able to strip wounds at lightning speed though. Works the same way in AoS with 15+ wound models. They go down quick with focused attention just like anything else.

This is my thinking.

1500 points was 3 Knights, so 60ish wounds.

That's still only 3 units for the purposes of objectives
20W is tough, but probably not "1500pts army worth of opposing anti-tank" tough, so focus fire will likely be effective.
We know that GC/SHV have lost a lot of their special rules, so we don't know if they'll have retained split fire, and if not, that's a very limited number of opposing units you can engage each turn.

Also, this

We’ll be back tomorrow with some good news for the little guys, when we look at how infantry work, and how combined firepower can be used to topple even the mightiest foes.

So something like a Knight list now sounds like it isn't going to be a binary "I tell my opponent I'm bringing them, and get antitanked by a tailored list turn 1, or I don't and I ROFLstomp them because they've not brought enough and I look like a douche nozzle" list like it was previously, it now looks like a tough list to succeed with that will offer some decent advantages played well.

FOC and points will hopefully limit a lot of smaller vehicles, to stop choking the table with cheap trukks or whatever, but at least nothing will be rendering elements of your list redundant by using a different damage mechanic.

All based on some supposition of course.