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Made in au
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Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

 rollawaythestone wrote:

This could be true, however, it also means things like Centurions, Riptides, and other deadlier 7th Ed. shooters get -1 to Hit if they move (depending on how things shake out in the end), which could be good at mitigating some overall damage output..

I doubt it... I would guess that anything that can currently move and fire heavy weapons will have a rule ignoring the -1 penalty.

   
Made in au
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'Straya... Mate.

Newest information in OP is now in red.

If you have any official facebook or twitter posts, post them in this thread and maybe shoot me a pm to get them added in to the OP.

 
   
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Rampaging Carnifex





South Florida

 insaniak wrote:
 rollawaythestone wrote:

This could be true, however, it also means things like Centurions, Riptides, and other deadlier 7th Ed. shooters get -1 to Hit if they move (depending on how things shake out in the end), which could be good at mitigating some overall damage output..

I doubt it... I would guess that anything that can currently move and fire heavy weapons will have a rule ignoring the -1 penalty.


This will certainly be true of some models with some previously "heavy weapons", however they did say specifically that vehicles would not be exempt from this rule. So I expect to see quite a few models that previously totted heavy weapons getting penalties, and lots of models potentially having these penalties waived. Hard to say what might happen.

Heavy weapons are worth talking about too. These no longer snap fire if you move, and instead they have a flat -1 to hit modifier for moving units. This applies to all models with heavy weapons, vehicles included.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/01 03:32:19


   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

For vehicles, I would expect that this will replace the current rules limiting how many weapons they can fire on the move. So now they'll be able to fire everything, but with the -1 penalty.

If the 'Heavy' class for vehicles remains, that will probably remove the -1.

   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





'Straya... Mate.

 rollawaythestone wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
 rollawaythestone wrote:

This could be true, however, it also means things like Centurions, Riptides, and other deadlier 7th Ed. shooters get -1 to Hit if they move (depending on how things shake out in the end), which could be good at mitigating some overall damage output..

I doubt it... I would guess that anything that can currently move and fire heavy weapons will have a rule ignoring the -1 penalty.


This will certainly be true of some models with some previously "heavy weapons", however they did say specifically that vehicles would not be exempt from this rule. So I expect to see quite a few models that previously totted heavy weapons getting penalties, and lots of models potentially having these penalties waived. Hard to say what might happen.

Heavy weapons are worth talking about too. These no longer snap fire if you move, and instead they have a flat -1 to hit modifier for moving units. This applies to all models with heavy weapons, vehicles included.


Yeah, so that applies to all models. Though they may then have a special rule that negates it, so certain heavy tanks may only be able to move 3", but then can fire at full ballistic skill.

 
   
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South Florida

 insaniak wrote:
For vehicles, I would expect that this will replace the current rules limiting how many weapons they can fire on the move. So now they'll be able to fire everything, but with the -1 penalty.

If the 'Heavy' class for vehicles remains, that will probably remove the -1.


I just don't see them using vehicles types (or additional rules )as a way to figure out which model does or doesn't get the movement penalty. I betcha those won't even exist, and it will just be built into the weapon profile for that model. So a Heavy Bolter on a Razorback will be listed and won't be heavy whereas a Heavy Bolter on a marine will be heavy and it will specify on that unit's profile.

It will allow them model-by-model to decide which units get particular penalties, and not be stuck with a blanket penalty/bonus for being a particular type of unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/01 03:36:09


   
Made in gr
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Athens

Monstrous creatures had a serious limit on how many weapons they could fire. Also I can't remember now how many of those are heavy.

Stomp soflty and carry a big choppa.

-Winstork churchill- 
   
Made in us
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I think the relatively light penalty (-1 instead of BS 1) might give GW more incentive to allow some of the previously relentless units (vehicles explicitly mentioned, but others might also qualify) to end up without a way to compensate.

As a Tau player, I'm hoping that doesn't include battlesuits, because I'm petty like that. Terminators really ought to also be exempt as well. Most MCs and heavier tanks, too.
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight





USA

 rollawaythestone wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
For vehicles, I would expect that this will replace the current rules limiting how many weapons they can fire on the move. So now they'll be able to fire everything, but with the -1 penalty.

If the 'Heavy' class for vehicles remains, that will probably remove the -1.


I just don't see them using vehicles types (or additional rules )as a way to figure out which model does or doesn't get the movement penalty. I betcha those won't even exist, and it will just be built into the weapon profile for that model. So a Heavy Bolter on a Razorback will be listed and won't be heavy whereas a Heavy Bolter on a marine will be heavy and it will specify on that unit's profile.

It will allow them model-by-model to decide which units get particular penalties, and not be stuck with a blanket penalty/bonus for being a particular type of unit.


Given how it's looking like they're going to go by a Sigmar-ish style of unit card, this makes a great deal of sense.

Also, with the do-away of a great deal of special rules, does anyone think they'll do something special for Plasma Weapons again like Gets Hot!?

7th Company (3000 points)
5th Brotherhood (2500 points) 
   
Made in kr
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your mind

OK, I am down with unit specific bespoken rules.
How will unit upgrades be handled, then?
Purely in the bespoken fashion, i.e. per the war scroll for the unit in question, add X points for A upgrade, Y points for B and so on?

   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

 jeff white wrote:
OK, I am down with unit specific bespoken rules.
How will unit upgrades be handled, then?
Purely in the bespoken fashion, i.e. per the war scroll for the unit in question, add X points for A upgrade, Y points for B and so on?

Given that points only exist in one of the three game modes, probably from an armoury in the relevant book.

In the non-points-costed game modes, it will either be 'as per the scenario' or 'put all your models on the table and have at it'.

   
Made in us
Nasty Nob






thats a good guess about how they may deal with the heavy vehicle type... Im super curious to see how they will deal with the 'fast' type. You think it would be as basic as just adding movement?

ERJAK wrote:


The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.

 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

Yeah, I would expect them to just have a higher movement.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




So the cover system may negate the negative of being able to leave combat.

Unit ends up with 1+ save (cannot fail, like in AOS) a melee unit will be the most efficient way to drive them out. Then they leave and you have ork boyz with a 4+ save instead of a 6+. Sounds clean if that happens to be the way it works...

   
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'Straya... Mate.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
So the cover system may negate the negative of being able to leave combat.

Unit ends up with 1+ save (cannot fail, like in AOS) a melee unit will be the most efficient way to drive them out. Then they leave and you have ork boyz with a 4+ save instead of a 6+. Sounds clean if that happens to be the way it works...

Yeah that is pretty much it

 
   
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Man I am really liking the rules so far. As an AoS player its good to see them taking certain aspects from there that work well while deviating on areas that were a bit rough, like shooting into & out of combat.

"Putting a statement in quotations makes it seem more legitimate."
--Bette R. Withname

Imagine three people with the same set of values but radically different emotional states, each of them believes their position is more valid than the other two, they all post using the same account, and your job is to make it coherent. 
   
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 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
30K is going to continue using the 7th Ed ruleset? But doesn't that require the 7th ed core rulebook, or is there a bespoke Horus Heresy core rulebook?



Take this with as much salt as you like. The Owner of my FLGS was told by his GW Rep he will be able to order core rule books for 30k in the near future. June 17th was the release date given.
   
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USA

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Man I am really liking the rules so far. As an AoS player its good to see them taking certain aspects from there that work well while deviating on areas that were a bit rough, like shooting into & out of combat.


I wonder if there's a negative for shooting out of combat though - something they didn't delve into maybe? I imagine you can't shoot out of combat at another unit and then deploy fisticuffs with the unit you're lock in combat with at the same level of effectiveness?

7th Company (3000 points)
5th Brotherhood (2500 points) 
   
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'Straya... Mate.

 Frankenberry wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Man I am really liking the rules so far. As an AoS player its good to see them taking certain aspects from there that work well while deviating on areas that were a bit rough, like shooting into & out of combat.


I wonder if there's a negative for shooting out of combat though - something they didn't delve into maybe? I imagine you can't shoot out of combat at another unit and then deploy fisticuffs with the unit you're lock in combat with at the same level of effectiveness?

News stated that you can't shoot in to or out of combat, unlike AOS

 
   
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Chino Hills, CA

Slight tangent but does the demonic infestation of Armageddon imply that the conflict there is going to shift towards Imperials vs Chaos?

Or to put it another way, are the Orks taking a back seat, or is this sort of an "enter player 3" type deal?

Some people play to win, some people play for fun. Me? I play to kill toy soldiers.
DR:90S++GMB++IPwhfb06+D++A++/dWD350R+++T(S)DM+

WHFB, AoS, 40k, WM/H, Starship Troopers Miniatures, FoW

 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

 Frankenberry wrote:

I wonder if there's a negative for shooting out of combat though - something they didn't delve into maybe? I imagine you can't shoot out of combat at another unit and then deploy fisticuffs with the unit you're lock in combat with at the same level of effectiveness?

You can't shoot at all if there is an enemy unit within an inch, unless you have a pistol... and even then it looks like you can only shoot at the nearby unit, not someone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Cryonicleech wrote:
Slight tangent but does the demonic infestation of Armageddon imply that the conflict there is going to shift towards Imperials vs Chaos?

Or to put it another way, are the Orks taking a back seat, or is this sort of an "enter player 3" type deal?

Chaos were there first


So yes, sort of. With the Ork invasion beaten off, the influence of Chaos is presumably resurgent.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/01 04:12:47


   
Made in au
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'Straya... Mate.

 Cryonicleech wrote:
Slight tangent but does the demonic infestation of Armageddon imply that the conflict there is going to shift towards Imperials vs Chaos?

Or to put it another way, are the Orks taking a back seat, or is this sort of an "enter player 3" type deal?

I think they are building it up as Imperials Vs. Chaos Vs. Orks royal rumble.

 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 jeff white wrote:
OK, I am down with unit specific bespoken rules.
How will unit upgrades be handled, then?
Purely in the bespoken fashion, i.e. per the war scroll for the unit in question, add X points for A upgrade, Y points for B and so on?


As long as it's more structured than those horrific sorta-rules/sorta-prose first paragraphs on the AoS Warscrolls:

"A Space Marine Tactical Squad consists of between 4 and 9 Space Marines who blast the enemy with Boltguns, slice at them with combat knives, lob frag grenades to annihilate their foes, and use their bolt pistols up close. They are led by a heroic Sergeant who has a boltpistol of his own, and a whirring chainsword."

And then somehow you put all a Tac Squads weapon options into that mess. Just list numbers and weapons please. I beg of you GW.

   
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I would be beyond disappointed if they used the same system for upgrades as AoS. Or in other words, no system at all. A given AoS warscroll has one cost regardless of options, which means any player not running the optimum configuration is being punished. This would be one thing if various options were close to each other in effectiveness but that is far from the case, there are weapon options that might as well not exist because they are so significantly worse for the same cost.

"Putting a statement in quotations makes it seem more legitimate."
--Bette R. Withname

Imagine three people with the same set of values but radically different emotional states, each of them believes their position is more valid than the other two, they all post using the same account, and your job is to make it coherent. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





'Straya... Mate.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I would be beyond disappointed if they used the same system for upgrades as AoS. Or in other words, no system at all. A given AoS warscroll has one cost regardless of options, which means any player not running the optimum configuration is being punished. This would be one thing if various options were close to each other in effectiveness but that is far from the case, there are weapon options that might as well not exist because they are so significantly worse for the same cost.

From their "Three Ways to Play" article, it looks like your worries won't be realized.

 
   
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Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Brisbane, Australia

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 jeff white wrote:
OK, I am down with unit specific bespoken rules.
How will unit upgrades be handled, then?
Purely in the bespoken fashion, i.e. per the war scroll for the unit in question, add X points for A upgrade, Y points for B and so on?


As long as it's more structured than those horrific sorta-rules/sorta-prose first paragraphs on the AoS Warscrolls:

"A Space Marine Tactical Squad consists of between 4 and 9 Space Marines who blast the enemy with Boltguns, slice at them with combat knives, lob frag grenades to annihilate their foes, and use their bolt pistols up close. They are led by a heroic Sergeant who has a boltpistol of his own, and a whirring chainsword."

And then somehow you put all a Tac Squads weapon options into that mess. Just list numbers and weapons please. I beg of you GW.


"One Space Marine can be armed with a special weapon instead of a boltgun. He could bring the flame of the Emperor to his foes with a Flamer, crush his foes with the force of a Grav Gun, turn the vehicles of his foul foes to slag with a Meltagun or strike the foes with a shot that contains the power of a miniature star with a Plasma Gun." Furthermore, one additional Space Marine can take to battle with a Heavy Weapon rather than a boltgun. With a fist-sized ammunition of a Heavy Bolter he can obliterate his foes. The immense power of the Grav Cannon will turn his foes to a fine paste under the weight of their own armour. The venerable Lascannon can pierce even the greatest of tanks armoured hide while the Multi-Melta can turn even the hull of Land Raider into a molten mess. If versatility is what is needed on the battlefield, then the Marine will take up a Missile Launcher as his heavy weapon of choice, turning his foes into a light red mist with Frag Missiles, hunting the iron bird of the sky with Flakk Missiles and blowing great hole in the side of vehicles and monsters alike with Krak Missiles.

Can I get employed yet?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/01 04:46:21


Multiple thin coats are always better than one thick coat.
 
   
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Mississippi

 Frankenberry wrote:
I wonder if there's a negative for shooting out of combat though - something they didn't delve into maybe? I imagine you can't shoot out of combat at another unit and then deploy fisticuffs with the unit you're lock in combat with at the same level of effectiveness?


It seems that if you're within 1" of an enemy model you cannot shoot anything at all. However, IF you have pistol weaponry, you can fire your pistols in the shooting phase, but it must be the closest model(s) to the firing unit that is targeted.

It covers shooting out of combat. You HAVE to shoot the closest model or models which, if you're locked in combat, will be the models you're locked in combat with. You won't be able to shoot a squad of Ork Boyz advancing toward the ongoing scrum consisting of a squad of Assault Marines and Gretchin led by a Runtherd. You'd have to fire your pistols at the Gretchin and their Runtherd as they're the closest models to you (Base to Base contact) and then attack them in your assault phase (or assault activation) and hope another unit can deal with the on-rushing Boyz squad.

That's how I read it, anyway.

I like it personally. As an aside, Hand Flamers in a Blood Angels army will get a definite boost, auto hit, with anywhere from D3 to D6 hits per Hand Flamer even when in assault sounds pretty nice in my opinion. I may try and incorporate more more into my army as I continue to build it up, especially in my Death Company. Replace a few Bolt Pistols with Hand Flamers, give them some added offensive power in the shooting phase after getting stuck in on the Assault.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

You don't know me son, so I'll explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.  
   
Made in us
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A small town at the foothills of the beautiful Cascade Mountains

What does the term "bespoken" mean in the new rules? I keep hearing it being used, but can't find it anyway on the GW website. Is it a new class or type of rule? Mez

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Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

 Mezmaron wrote:
What does the term "bespoken" mean in the new rules? I keep hearing it being used, but can't find it anyway on the GW website. Is it a new class or type of rule? Mez

It's not a GW term. It just means that units have rules crafted specifically for them on their unit cards rather than having special rules covered by USRs.

   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





'Straya... Mate.

 Azreal13 wrote:
 JoeyFox wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:


A promise of day 1 get-you-by rules for everything 40K, 30K continues in the vein of 7th.

Whether they choose to exclude units for some reason is possible, but not likely enough to worry about.

Also..

Spoiler:
Bespoke.


Pardon my ignorance but what exactly does a "bespoke" rule entail? I see it referenced on their initial murmurs of the new edition and I see the dictionary definition of it as well. Explain if you will? If it's OT, PM it to me.


Well, I think you probably need to read the thread to get the joke.

But all bespoke means in this context is one-off rules written specifically for a unit or collection of units. Just a "special" rule in 7th Ed speak.

 
   
 
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