Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
So, hand flamers are pretty meh, but they also only cost one point and can be taken on superiors instead of the bolt pistol. Would it be worth equipping each sister superior with one as a minor deterrent against charges since it still lets them keep their boltgun for normal shooting?
Mavnas wrote: So, I haven't played since previous editions. Can I now have multiple Orders in the same detachment or is your ability to mix and match them going to be limited by the detachment limits?
Unless you're playing in a tournament there are no detachment limits. Its like the "Rule" of 3. Its a suggestion competitive types take as gospel then spread as misinformation.
It's a rule suggestion from GW for organised events. If you're making such events you're free to include them in your games.
Unfortunately, these are such bad suggestions that a lot of people not playing in tournaments are also using them.
Without the detachment limit nor "the rule of 3", the game allows you to make an army entirely comprised of canoness for exemple (with +1CP per 3 canoness), even in matched play.
And to be clear, I don't imply it would be extremely strong but rather that it is extremely absurd.
But that only applies if your local group is a giant pile of douchenozzles. A lot of people just play with friends who aren't idiots.
Okay, so I'm torn between my hatred of the rule of 3 (a lazy patchjob GW gakked out to avoid actually balancing units within a codex) and my problem with people who don't realize that the vast majority of people don't play 40k in a tiny little circle-jerk where they can just make up rules whenever they want, and thus require an accepted baseline in order to communicate and set up games effectively.
I also hate the idea that playing an efficient army (or even just a nonsensical army ala 40 canonesses)is automatically 'douchenozzle' just because it doesn't fit someone's preconceived and totally arbitrary notion of what the game 'should' be. The game is what it is, if the rules let you do something then it's part of the game. Sorry that it doesn't conform to some sub-header in a dubiously canon black library book you listened to on your way to family vacation in Boca 8 years ago, but it's fun and it's legal so get off your high horse.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rogerio134134 wrote: I've picked up the sisters box on pre order and am really excited about the beautiful new models. The rules don't seem overly incredible however when you put them next to things like marines etc
It seems the strength of the sisters is to throw everything forward and flood the enemy with masses of flamer shots and then follow up with glass cannon melee units. I'm used to sitting back and peppering the enemy to death with my Crimson fists so playing with sisters is going to be a big challenge!
For your own sake, heavy flamers. Regular flamers are worse than stormbolters in 80% of cases.
Hey ERJACK? I think your knee jerked too hard and hit you in the head. Isn't the competitive community what you describe? A big circle jerk of people min/maxing their armies and focussing only on the most powerful units and copying each others lists while making up rules and calling it "ITC" or "ETC".
Mavnas wrote: So, I haven't played since previous editions. Can I now have multiple Orders in the same detachment or is your ability to mix and match them going to be limited by the detachment limits?
Unless you're playing in a tournament there are no detachment limits. Its like the "Rule" of 3. Its a suggestion competitive types take as gospel then spread as misinformation.
It's a rule suggestion from GW for organised events. If you're making such events you're free to include them in your games.
Unfortunately, these are such bad suggestions that a lot of people not playing in tournaments are also using them.
Without the detachment limit nor "the rule of 3", the game allows you to make an army entirely comprised of canoness for exemple (with +1CP per 3 canoness), even in matched play.
And to be clear, I don't imply it would be extremely strong but rather that it is extremely absurd.
But that only applies if your local group is a giant pile of douchenozzles. A lot of people just play with friends who aren't idiots.
Okay, so I'm torn between my hatred of the rule of 3 (a lazy patchjob GW gakked out to avoid actually balancing units within a codex) and my problem with people who don't realize that the vast majority of people don't play 40k in a tiny little circle-jerk where they can just make up rules whenever they want, and thus require an accepted baseline in order to communicate and set up games effectively.
I also hate the idea that playing an efficient army (or even just a nonsensical army ala 40 canonesses)is automatically 'douchenozzle' just because it doesn't fit someone's preconceived and totally arbitrary notion of what the game 'should' be. The game is what it is, if the rules let you do something then it's part of the game. Sorry that it doesn't conform to some sub-header in a dubiously canon black library book you listened to on your way to family vacation in Boca 8 years ago, but it's fun and it's legal so get off your high horse.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rogerio134134 wrote: I've picked up the sisters box on pre order and am really excited about the beautiful new models. The rules don't seem overly incredible however when you put them next to things like marines etc
It seems the strength of the sisters is to throw everything forward and flood the enemy with masses of flamer shots and then follow up with glass cannon melee units. I'm used to sitting back and peppering the enemy to death with my Crimson fists so playing with sisters is going to be a big challenge!
For your own sake, heavy flamers. Regular flamers are worse than stormbolters in 80% of cases.
Hey ERJACK? I think your knee jerked too hard and hit you in the head. Isn't the competitive community what you describe? A big circle jerk of people min/maxing their armies and focussing only on the most powerful units and copying each others lists while making up rules and calling it "ITC" or "ETC".
You were accusing people who have a different play style as being stupid, powergames, and incorrect in the way they play. None of that is automatically true, even for the most competative community.
This is off topic though, so it would be best if we left it at that.
So I already have three units of Seraphim set up to run infernos or flamers... obviously the anti-armor potential of DSing infernos with the range boost from the new Descent strat is good to see, but what about running hand flamers with the Bloody Rose -1AP? With good LoS blocking terrain and a little boost from Celestine, you could scoot three units across the board in the time it takes deep strike one and deliver quite a bit of -1AP volume fire. Are there enough viable targets for -1AP to be at least a little excited about this? Obviously it will murder masses of 6+ cultists and ork boyz, but is it also going to hit hard against MEQ objective campers and such?
Mavnas wrote: So, hand flamers are pretty meh, but they also only cost one point and can be taken on superiors instead of the bolt pistol. Would it be worth equipping each sister superior with one as a minor deterrent against charges since it still lets them keep their boltgun for normal shooting?
Depends. If you're just min/maxing squads, definitely not. But if you're going with larger squads? Maybe. But I think I'd rather have a combi-melta.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sim-Life wrote: So since the codex is officially released in a few days are we starting a new thread?
I am staring at its pages in rapture.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/28 00:34:04
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Mavnas wrote: I did the math for the strategem that maxes flamer attacks, but even 24 S3AP0 hits are pretty meh. Less than 3 dead MEQ.
It's a pistol, they are AP-1.
In any case hand flamers is the wrong weapon on them, just take bolt pistols.
5 seraphim descending like that are 20 shots S4 AP-1. The bolt pistols can fire both in the movement phase and in the shooting phase thanks to range 12".
10 seraphims actually got some nice tricks. You can descend shoot 20 shots at something 18" away, then shoot 20 shots at a unit 12" away then charge and tripoint (maybe using a MD). If you charge the right target, you will kill it with 20 bolt pistol shots in the next shooting phase and are free to charge again.
Also, Zephyrs on the charge are much stronger than they look. 5 on the charge without any support are 3,5 MEQ (bloody rose without passion). I have to check the exact wording of MD, it says that you cannot reroll and MD, but not that you can't use it on a rerolled dice. So you can charge with Zeph, see if you get the charge and then use the native reroll to throw a 6+3 or 5+4 MD.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/28 02:40:56
10 seraphims actually got some nice tricks. You can descend shoot 20 shots at something 18" away, then shoot 20 shots at a unit 12" away then charge and tripoint (maybe using a MD). If you charge the right target, you will kill it with 20 bolt pistol shots in the next shooting phase and are free to charge again.
Is this possibly a place for Holy Trinity? Give them one of each, create a possibility for wounding on 3s against MEQs and still being in the game against T 5/6/7 with lots of dice, plus it makes the unit harder to charge and gives a chance at finishing off a high T target with the infernos. The only problem is range, since it happens (I think) in the shooting phase.
Maybe I'll try DSing dedicated anti-tank squads in turns 2 and 3 with Deadly Descent and send a 10x "Trinity" squad up the board with Celestine to meet them.
Deadly Descent interests me, even though im cold on it for a Trinity drop. id use it on a inferno pistol squad to suddenly drop melta on something, or on a 10 strong bolt pistol seraphim squad.
that said, don't forget you can also drop in a Zephyrim pennant squad to spot the tie-up charges with charge rerolls if you want, which also results in a few more bolt pistols in the shooting phase, an extra unit to tie-up something, and the synergy with bloody rose for AP has already been well pointed out. that is a LOT of sudden bolt pistol shots from the descended seraphim, and then that phase. it was the first thing i thought of with Zephryim to put them to use.
So how do we deal with enemy vehicle spam?? I'll be taking 3 X excorcists for sure and it looks like I'll be needing to take retribution squads with multi meltas as well!
The elite sisters sound very cool, celestians?? Re roll all hits from the cannonness plus more attacks and LD!
Think I'll be running my army in 2 sections the castle and the suicide blob. At the back will sit the exorcists and retributors pumping out firepower and holding objectives. The other section will be some sisters in immolators with heavy flamers etc and pentinent engines / repentia who will plunge into the enemy and do as much damage as possible before going into the emperor's divine light!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/28 07:21:00
It feels like we have the tools. The Exorcists are more expensive, but much more reliable. Deadly Descent Seraphim can fire 4 melta shots on entry. Retributors with Meltas I'm not sold on, although I did like the Goonhammer suggestion of running 2 MM with two cherubs to save 50 points but still get 4 shots on a key turn.
I think a significant component could be Miracle Dice. We've got a pretty good stable of d6 damage weapons, and being able to just go 'yeah, take x damage' really shifts the odds.
And given the way that Miracle Dice work (or seem to work), there's a reasonable case for just sticking a melta in a few BS squads with a Simulacrum Imperialis. If you manage to wound a tank with the melta you can just throw a MD at it, and you can spread the threats through multiple squads.
10 seraphims, bloody rose, divine guidance, with double hand flamers using burning descent.
assuming no cover
16 bolt pistols shots - 12 hits, 5 ap1 and 1 ap2 wounds on MEQ - 3.17 wounds after saves
14 flamer shots (avg) - 2 ap1 and 2 ap2 wounds on MEQ - 2.32 wounds after saves
total of around 5.5 wounds. Not bad but no great.
Now let's use them for what they would be for. Shaff clearing aka GEQ (going to do a roll of rounding up/down of values for simplicity)
once again no cover
16 bolt pistols shots - 12 hits, 7 ap1 and 1 ap2 wounds on GEQ - 7 wounds after saves
14 flamer shots (avg) - 5 ap1 and 2 ap2 wounds on GEQ - 6 wounds after saves
total of 13 wounds after saves.
Now, we still have not gone through the actual shooting phase that will add another 7 dead again from the bolt pistols. 20 models from a single unit is not that terrible.
Voldrak wrote: 10 seraphims, bloody rose, divine guidance, with double hand flamers using burning descent.
assuming no cover
16 bolt pistols shots - 12 hits, 5 ap1 and 1 ap2 wounds on MEQ - 3.17 wounds after saves
14 flamer shots (avg) - 2 ap1 and 2 ap2 wounds on MEQ - 2.32 wounds after saves
total of around 5.5 wounds. Not bad but no great.
Now let's use them for what they would be for. Shaff clearing aka GEQ (going to do a roll of rounding up/down of values for simplicity)
once again no cover
16 bolt pistols shots - 12 hits, 7 ap1 and 1 ap2 wounds on GEQ - 7 wounds after saves
14 flamer shots (avg) - 5 ap1 and 2 ap2 wounds on GEQ - 6 wounds after saves
total of 13 wounds after saves.
Now, we still have not gone through the actual shooting phase that will add another 7 dead again from the bolt pistols. 20 models from a single unit is not that terrible.
For 112pts, that's some good numbers.
Just got my box. After building Primaris and Necrons, it's so weird to be building tiny humans again. The sisters are so small by comparison. I love it.
Having opened my box and reorganized my metal sisters, I can find I roll up into a 127-model list with 20 CPs. Is it worth it to sacrifice 5 CPs and a bunch of the models to run something slightly more elite?
Unit1126PLL wrote: Having opened my box and reorganized my metal sisters, I can find I roll up into a 127-model list with 20 CPs. Is it worth it to sacrifice 5 CPs and a bunch of the models to run something slightly more elite?
Not dead, merely absent. I've avoided the thread due to life impinging and some other reasons. I'll probably pop to the new one though.
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
