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Which do you prefer. The vanguard special rule seems a little bit like a one trick pony but i want to see your guys thoughts.

On a side note im fleshing out my salamanders and am leaning toward Sternguard.

I really wish Vanguard would be worth the points... I really really do
but your looking at ~45pts for a Jump Power Weapon, compared to a 40pt terminator or a 18pt Jump Marine
it makes me make the sad-face since I like converting vets

This definitely belongs in Tactics, sending it there!

I have made myself 10 Vanguard......strictly for the modeling fun (I make my own).

Anything a Vanguard squad can do, equal point of Assault marines does better.

Sternguard on the other hand......luverly.

I used to run a libby, two tacs, a dread, and a sternguard squad, all in pods. I found that the sternguard are just not survivable and reliable enough to justify the amount of points spent on them. Yes they're flexible, and the special issue ammo is amazing, but they tend to land, crush a unit, and then die.

My new list dropped the sternguard in favour of a second dread and a unit of assault terminators (and yes, this was basically a straight across trade). Two tag-team dreadnoughts are pretty solid (though i'm thinking they should become ironclads for extra survivability).

What really suprised me is how much better the terminators do the sternguard's job, even though they don't shoot. They take the pressure off my tacticals when they drop in, can deepstrike to where they're needed thanks to the locator beacons on the drop pods, and are ridiculously more survivable. Their ability to react is delayed, thanks to being unable to shoot the turn they land, but they're great at taking out things like MCs, or holding their ground against tough enemy troops.

The vanguard vets can do basically the same thing, but without the delay and for a higher price. Give a few of them stormshields, the champ a relic blade, and a few powerweapon/thunder hammers here and there. You now have a 12" radius around any of your LB drop pods that is instantly assaultable the turn they become available. Their saves aren't as good, but the SS's should give them some survivability against power weapons/ap3.

The tactic is expensive, and probably not all that cost-effective, but it can cause some serious hurt against the right armies. MC in your way? Those TH/PW/RB attacks should carve him down to size. Same thing with say a unit of nob bikers, or anything else that's threatening your tacticals. Will give the enemy pause coming anywhere near those drop pods in the least.

Right now I'm leaning more towards keeping the terminators though. The sternguard are cool, but just die too quick. Maybe in smaller units of 6 they'd be better, and cheaper.

I have been having a similar problem with Sternguard dying too easily. The help I received is that the Sternguard should not be frontline troops, but should support another unit. They shoot up a unit, then you have an assault squad assault and clean up. Presto, nothing left of the unit you shot to slaughter you.

Also, the vanguard vets don't need a drop pod to deep strike if they have jetpacks. I am not sure if your example included the Vanguard in the drop pod or using the locator beacon to direct them in.

pavonis wrote:I have been having a similar problem with Sternguard dying too easily. The help I received is that the Sternguard should not be frontline troops, but should support another unit. They shoot up a unit, then you have an assault squad assault and clean up. Presto, nothing left of the unit you shot to slaughter you.

Also, the vanguard vets don't need a drop pod to deep strike if they have jetpacks. I am not sure if your example included the Vanguard in the drop pod or using the locator beacon to direct them in.

locator beacon, since they can't assault straight out of a drop pod. A locator beacon on a pod gives a 6" radius around the pod that you can safely deepstrike into, and from there you have a further 6" charge radius, giving you an effective charge radius of 12" encircling all of your LB equipped drop pods.

But ya, with sternguard it isn't the unit they shot at thats a problem, its all the other ones that you never got around to hitting. They're extremely vulnerable to things like MCs, battle cannons, plasma-equipped squads, etc. They hit hard, but once they hit they're likely to be a very attractive target to anything and everything in the enemy army, and unlike terminators there isn't a chance in hell that they'll be able to withstand it.

This is why i dropped them. They're great for somewhat softer armies where you need one unit very dead, for instance that nob command squad hiding in cover would be a great target for two heavy flamers and a bunch of dragonfire shots. However, once they've shot they're going to get torn apart.

That's why combi weapons are an attractive choice.
They shoot once with the melta gun/flamer and then they die.
And if they survive then they still have boltguns.

Sgt. Salt wrote:That's why combi weapons are an attractive choice.
They shoot once with the melta gun/flamer and then they die.
And if they survive then they still have boltguns.

I don't think this is the way to use sternguard. Sternguard should not be the solo "AHM GONNA KEEL YOU!" unit that they are most often used as. They are treated as an expendable 160-200+ unit designed to last one to two turns.



Personally, I'd use the sternguard only when they are supported by other units that are seemingly similar in value to your plan. This forces your opponent to make the choice of choosing to concentrate fire against one squad that may or may not be a part of your final plan, or spreading their fire in the hopes of damaging at least a fraction of your important squads.

The more decision your opponent is forced to make, the more likely they are to make mistakes.

That being said, my response to the OP is this.

Vanguard if you want to have lots of fun with a unit that will kill lots of stuff very graphically before dying and taking up an ungodly amount of points.

Sternguard if you want a unit that is very good at doing lots of different things that you army might need it to do.

And an exterminatus for when your having a really bad day

Of course, you can always combine the two. Bring down the Sternguard and Vanguard in the second wave of a Drop Pod Assault, using the esablished Locator Beacons to orient them. Then shoot up units with the Sternguard, and spread out your Vanguard to sweep up as many of the survivors as possible.

I've actually been theorizing as such with one of my local SM players, at least to the extent of Sternguard. Vanguard are just too pricy, even with their assault out of deep strike ability.

Basically, instead of bringing in the Sternguard first, you have them in normal reserve. You can then bring them in where needed, as the battle develops, and once the rest of your forces have moved into a position where they can support them.

Admittedly, there are times where you might want them to come in first, against certain armies, but it's not the automatic decision that I think some people believe it to be.

B

Mind you, suppose the following:

A squad of Sternguard lands, Combat Squads, and then douses the nearby squads with up to 10 Melta shots or up to 20 SMiss-Bolter shots. You'll probably destroy, break, or just maul two units.

Two Combat Squads of Vanguard land, heroically intervene into two units apiece, and deal up to 40 attacks, eight of which are Power Weapon attacks prior to options. Or they're Krak grenades on R10 armour.

Even better, suppose that your opponent has a couple of Land Raiders or Battlewagons filled with Space Marine or Ork assault troops they think are safe. Destroy the vehicles with the Sternguard, mop up the contents with the Vanguard.

Sternguard:
10 Sternguard Veterans
10 Combi-Meltas
1 Drop Pod w/Locator Beacon

Vanguard
10 Vanguard Veterans
2 Power Weapons
Jump Packs

I think you'd want another unit of Assault Marines bouncing around the enemy backfield with the Vanguard, and some Tactical Marines to come down in the first wave of the Drop Pod Assault, but I think they would complement each other very well. The Sternguard shoot what the Vanguard can't reach in time, and the Vanguard mop up what might assault the Sternguard.

One thing I like about Vanguard... the minis make for fantastic looking Death Company Marines!

Hee.

G

I stand by a epi libarian gating & force doming ur sternguards, using atleast one drop pod to get them up the field (Safely, using beacons)

A squad of Sternguard lands, Combat Squads, and then douses the nearby squads with up to 10 Melta shots or up to 20 SMiss-Bolter shots. You'll probably destroy, break, or just maul two units.

Uumm.. do sternguard get relentless or slow & steady or do you mean up to 10 Smiss-bolter shots?

A squad of Sternguard lands, Combat Squads, and then douses the nearby squads with up to 10 Melta shots or up to 20 SMiss-Bolter shots. You'll probably destroy, break, or just maul two units.

Uumm.. do sternguard get relentless or slow & steady or do you mean up to 10 Smiss-bolter shots?

No way.. 2 shots even when moving.. When did this change! I swear it was different last edition. I havent noticed it change. Aww.

It's been like that since the start of 4th edition...

Gotta admit, Sterngaurd make great deathwatch teams.

I really just haven't found sterngaurd to be worth their points. Yes, they kill gak better than a regular marine but they also cost 10 points more. With a 10man sternguard squad, you have to consider "would I rather have this squad, or would I rather have a full tactical squad and a dreadnought?" For me, it was sternguard, or 5 terminators and another dreadnought.

Don't get me wrong, my sternguard rocked when they were on the field, and killed tonnes of very nasty enemies. It's just that they never did so cost effectively, and the more I thought about it the more uses I found for the 300+ points that unit took up.

All of the Sternguard special ammo gets Rapid Fire. And since they aren't usually assaulting, they can RF early and often.