Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just picked up the rules and read through them. I had to re-read the HtH rules. I have been playing 40K forever (2nd Ed) but stop when they attempted to switch to 4th. Just couldn't take all the changing and changing and changing that was going on. I would get my models and my armies just right and then POW...I would need $100.00 dollars worth of more models to straighten out my 40K lists to the new rules.

Anyway I am in a much better spot in my life and I have 2 kids...12 and 14. They saw my stuff and want to play. Yeah I know...MORE PAIN and anguish!!!

So I busted out the Orks, Blood Angles, and Necrons...marched down to the local GW store and picked up the box set Black Reach (small rule book) and the new Codices.

Here is my concern. Are the HtH rules screwed up? I have a serious problem with the example of removing models from Hth page 39.

"the ork player removes casualties from unengaged models, so that his engaged Gretchin live to strike back."

This is crazy in camparison to this rule quote on page 36 WHO STRIKES FIRST?
"Models make their attacks when their initiative value is reached, assuming they haven't already been killed by a model with a higher initiative!"

I have always known the rules to be in the past that MODELS IN BASE TO BASE CONTACT were always removed 1st then you worked out from there. What happen? Doesn't this totally defeat the Initiative Characteristic especially with the new Pile In rules where a defending player gets to move all his guys into BtB with a 6" move?

So if I read this right. Here is an extreme example.

1. An Chapter Master is alone out in the open with Int 5...I charge him with a 10 boy mob (9 Slugga Boyz 2HtH weapons) 1 is a Nob with Power Klaw...all of them are "engaged" because of the NEW 2" rule. So they get all of their 4 attacks even if not in BtB for a total of 40 dice total. (to me this just seems crazy...I am used to the 2" 1 attack throwing rocks and shouting rule)
2. The Character goes first and kills 5 orks!!! Which would have been enough to remove every guy that was in BtB contact with him (which includes the Nob)
3. I remove the guys in the rear not in BtB...
4. So 5 orks now attack at full strength...4 attack with 16 dice and the Nob armed with PK throws 4 dice (no bonus for 2 HtH) strength 9
5. The boys hit 6 times the nob hits 2
6. The Chapter master save 5 of the normal ork hits and FAILS 1 Iron Halo BANG dead due to Instant Death

Do I have this right...seems like initiative did the Chapter Master no good!!! He killed 5 orks but they were all crubs and then had to face down a lowly nob and got waxed...doesn't seem right?

Opinions please...I need some of your more experienced opinons on this...does the new hth casualty rule work or is it broken?

Brasscorpion

Brasscorpion wrote:Do I have this right...seems like initiative did the Chapter Master no good!!!

Of course initiative did him some good... he only got hit by 5 orks, instead of 10.


The whole point of this change was to let swarm armies actually benefit from being in swarms. If you're going to get yourself into an assault with a larger squad, you need to make very sure that your unit is actually up to the task. It forces more long range thinking, since you have to figure out whether or not you can beat the entire unit rather than whether or not you can beat them by selective model placement that allows you to 'win' the combat by killing a single model and thus disallowing them from hitting back...

Another benefit is that the Assault rounds have been sped up with these changes. I started in 3rd Ed. myself and I do remember the combats taking forever even then. Late in 3rd Edition they started to see the close combats tying up games and tried rectifying it. 4th came shortly thereafter, and now 5th.

Also, from what I see, you understand the Assault round perfectly given the example you cited.

It does hurt the High I CC models, and helps the swarms a bit.
OTOH, the new No Retreat rules make it harder on swarms.