Can't stack wounds on units with same models all around.

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**winterman**

Something I have noticed that seems to have escaped the attention of a few people I have played.

If the squad is all equipped the same you do not allocate wounds. I have seen a couple people do this and have also noted people mentioning allocation like it always happens. Except it doesn't.

Let's say I have a unit of 6 genestealers w/ carapace (4+ save). If they take 5 bolter wounds and 2 plasma wounds, you can't allocate the 5 bolter wounds and stack the 2 plasma wounds on the unit. 2 stealers die automatically and however many fail to save versus the bolters die as well.

Had the unit been a compex unit, like say 6 marines w/ being a 1 sgt, you could have stacked the plasma wounds onto the sgt and remove him. This is allowed since wounds from groups or unique models of a unit do not carry over.

Of course, there's something I could be missing but that is it in a nutshell. I am sure many many people already know this but thought I'd post it up anyways as it seems many don't know.

EDIT in bold above due to people not reading the whole thread...

**mrdabba**

actually in the scenerio you mentioned you can stack both plasma wounds on 1 genestealer. once you applied the 5 bolter wounds and 1 plasma the second plasma can go on any of the 6 genestealers. a smart person will place it on the model already wounded by a plasma.

You always allocate wounds this way.....you have to roll your armor saves separately based on the special models in the unit.

The way people abuse with rule is spreading wounds around in multi wound models or removing models with spent combi weapons before the unused ones.

**insaniak**

winterman wrote:Had the unit been a compex unit, like say 6 marines w/ being a 1 sgt, you could have stacked the plasma wounds onto 1 bolter guy and imply removed him.

Nope, in that case you would have taken two plasma wounds on models identical to the bolter guy... which means losing two models.

You could have stacked them both onto the Sergeant, in which case he takes them both as he is the only model of his type.

Allocating the hits to individual models is purely a way of keeping track of them. They're still applied to the models as a group, not individually.

**Janthkin**

mrdabba wrote:actually in the scenerio you mentioned you can stack both plasma wounds on 1 genestealer. once you applied the 5 bolter wounds and 1 plasma the second plasma can go on any of the 6 genestealers. a smart person will place it on the model already wounded by a plasma.

You are illustrating his point. This is an incorrect summarization of the rules.

The allocation process only comes into play if the unit has more than one model type, e.g., 9 marines & 1 w/a heavy weapon. Otherwise, you simply roll saves, and remove a number of models (wounds) equal to the number of failed (or negated) saves.

**insaniak**

mrdabba wrote:actually in the scenerio you mentioned you can stack both plasma wounds on 1 genestealer. once you applied the 5 bolter wounds and 1 plasma the second plasma can go on any of the 6 genestealers. a smart person will place it on the model already wounded by a plasma.

This is incorrect. If the models are all identical, you don't allocate wounds. You simply roll a save for each wounding hit (if they get a save) and then remove a model for each unsaved wound. Page 24, 'Remove Casualties'

**winterman**

Nope, in that case you would have taken two plasma wounds on models identical to the bolter guy... which means losing two models.

Damn yep you are right, that was a bad example -- but atleast further illustrates the various ways to screw up allocation.

**whitedragon**

insaniak wrote:
winterman wrote:Had the unit been a compex unit, like say 6 marines w/ being a 1 sgt, you could have stacked the plasma wounds onto 1 bolter guy and imply removed him.

Nope, in that case you would have taken two plasma wounds on models identical to the bolter guy... which means losing two models.

You could have stacked them both onto the Sergeant, in which case he takes them both as he is the only model of his type.

Allocating the hits to individual models is purely a way of keeping track of them. They're still applied to the models as a group, not individually.

I may be mistaken, but why doesn't this work? Doesn't the rulebook even give an example where this is the case?

**insaniak**

It doesn't work because when it comes time to remove casualties, you simply add up the number of unsaved wounds taken by that group of models, and remove a corresponding number of models from that group.

Check the section on rolling saves for complex units... once you have allocated the wounding hits, you roll all of a given group's saves together. Not model-by-model, which is what would be required in order for you to be able to stack wounds onto models within the group.

**mrdabba**

winterman wrote:Something I have noticed that seems to have escaped the attention of a few people I have played.

If the squad is all equipped the same you do not allocate wounds. I have seen a couple people do this and have also noted people mentioning allocation like it always happens. Except it doesn't.

Let's say I have a unit of 6 genestealers w/ carapace (4+ save). If they take 5 bolter wounds and 2 plasma wounds, you can't allocate the 5 bolter wounds and stack the 2 plasma wounds on the unit. 2 stealers die automatically and however many fail to save versus the bolters die as well.

Had the unit been a compex unit, like say 6 marines w/ being a 1 sgt, you could have stacked the plasma wounds onto 1 bolter guy and imply removed him.

Of course, there's something I could be missing but that is it in a nutshell. I am sure many many people already know this but thought I'd post it up anyways as it seems many don't know.

I've reread the rules and you are correct. I guess the reason people go straight to allocating wounds is because there are not many cases were models in a unit are all the same. Genestealers being one. Most units in the game have special models were you could stack the 2 plasma shots. So it seems tyranids were hurt even more by 5th edition then every other army. at least chaos deamons can take standard bearers, musicians and champs so they can allocate.

**insaniak**

mrdabba wrote:I've reread the rules and you are correct.

He's not. Again, stacking wounds onto models when there are more than one in that model's group doesn;t actually accomplish anything. You still lose the same number of models.

Most units in the game have special models were you could stack the 2 plasma shots.

...assuming that you, for some bizarre reason, actually wanted to stack the plasma shots onto your special models...

**pavonis**

However, in your case, you have special units...ones with spend combi's and ones with still usable combi's. You would need to roll wounds for the ones with the usable combi's separately and the ones that are used together. I believe the scenario in the book covers this scenario.

**insaniak**

In whose case?

And they have what?

:?

**winterman**

I believe the scenario in the book covers this scenario.

You should re-read the scenario/example given in the 5ed rules. It doesn't allow stacking or removal of wounds the way I erronously suggested, you still have to roll and remove the total wounds caused from the group. More wounds then the group has still get discarded, which is what the example in the 5ed book illustrates.

The old PDF test rules did have something similar to what I wrote, but it is a tad different in the actual 5ed rules.

**GhostRecon**

winterman wrote:Something I have noticed that seems to have escaped the attention of a few people I have played.

If the squad is all equipped the same you do not allocate wounds. I have seen a couple people do this and have also noted people mentioning allocation like it always happens. Except it doesn't.

Let's say I have a unit of 6 genestealers w/ carapace (4+ save). If they take 5 bolter wounds and 2 plasma wounds, you can't allocate the 5 bolter wounds and stack the 2 plasma wounds on the unit. 2 stealers die automatically and however many fail to save versus the bolters die as well.

Had the unit been a compex unit, like say 6 marines w/ being a 1 sgt, you could have stacked the plasma wounds onto 1 bolter guy and imply removed him.

Of course, there's something I could be missing but that is it in a nutshell. I am sure many many people already know this but thought I'd post it up anyways as it seems many don't know.

Yet, this is still incorrect.

If you assign the 2 plasma wounds onto the marines with bolters, you lose TWO marines with bolters, not one. If you try and assign the plasma wounds onto the Sergeant, then you still have 1 wound left over to assign to the bolter marines. You must assign ONE WOUND to EACH MODEL before you can assign ANOTHER WOUND to that model. Read the example in the rulebook carefully.

**SeattleDV8**

No the sgt could take the two plasma shots.
you allocate wounds to models
You make saves by groups.
In the SM example you have two groups the sgt. and the bolters.

**insaniak**

GhostRecon wrote:If you assign the 2 plasma wounds onto the marines with bolters, you lose TWO marines with bolters, not one.

That's correct. The models are assigned wounds. All identical models roll saves together, and the group loses a model for each unsaved wound.

If you try and assign the plasma wounds onto the Sergeant, then you still have 1 wound left over to assign to the bolter marines.

This is incorrect.

Wounds are only removed from the group to which they are assigned. Check the last paragraph of the example on page 25.

You must assign ONE WOUND to EACH MODEL before you can assign ANOTHER WOUND to that model.

Wounds are assigned before removing casualties. Once you get to the Remove Casualties step, all that matters is which group of models had the wounds assigned to them.

**Typeline**

I think this thread so far is a perfect example of why the 5th ed wound allocation rules are crap.

**Nurglitch**

To be fair the Warhammer rules don't really lend themselves to non-crap wound allocation for complex units.

**winterman**

Ok since that is the 2nd person that is correcting the example, even after I admitted it was wrong, I am editing the original post.

**insaniak**

In your new example, frankly I'm still not seeing a problem. Yes, the Marine unit can soak up an extra plasma hit in that example... but you have to remove the Sergeant to do so.

**MagickalMemories**

Typeline wrote:I think this thread so far is a perfect example of why the 5th ed wound allocation rules are crap.

I think this thread so far is a perfect example of why some people's reading comprehension is crap.

The wound allocation rules are simple, if you just read them and pay attention.

Eric

**Nurglitch**

Whoa there, MagickalMemories. That's a thought crime. Repeat "It's all GW's fault" ten times before bed and you'll be okay. We're all pulling for you!

**Clay Williams**

Is this why I feel a stinging sensation on the back of my head every night?

**don_mondo**

Nahhhh, that's the thumbtacks I put in your pillowcase..................