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When tooling up my Skull Champions, I came upon something that could decide their overall usefulness.

I could take Skull Champion A, who has a Power Fist, making him good against vehicles and a slowpoke in Infantry CC. He costs 40 points.

Or...

I could take Skull Champion B. He carries a Power Weapon and Meltabombs. He's scary against Infantry in CC and just about equally scary against most vehicles. He costs 35 points.

So I've got A who's a bit more expensive but can reliably pop Monoliths and Infantry, assuming he gets his attacks in (which he most likely will); And B who costs less and pops every vehicle but Monoliths reliably and eviscerates Infantry.

Which Skull Champion would be the more effective choice? Imo, some play-testing may be required here.

Powerfist all the way, you get a extremly vaulable extra attack with it.

I've found the fist works very well, you still have 4 attacks, more than most others, and your S9 on the charge great vs large tanks!

powerfists one-shot most characters, can deal with MCs and can more reliably kill vehicles (you only get one attack for melta bombs). very worth it for only 5pts.

Power fist is definately the way to go. The primary ability of Khorne Berserkers is that they have an extra attack. This is useless with Meltabombs as you will never get more than one attack. Also keep in mind that you need a 6 to hit Dreadnoughts with meltabombs (or to hit a vehicle that moved at cruising speed) whereas you only need a 3 to hit a Dreadnought with the powerfist.

The real question is whether to buy one of the normal Berserkers a plasma pistol. I've decided that it is worth it. Not for shooting but for stacking low AP wounds during wound allocation.

So, Democratus, you advocate spending ten points to save a life? Do you find this works better in CC or in shooting? I'm trying to decide when this would work out better in the event that your unit is down to a few men left, or if you are footslogging across the board with 20 'zerkers.

Wouldn't you think you would be better served to just buy another model?

And Powerfist all the way for the champion. His base number of attacks makes the lack of the extra attack from 5th edition alot less painful, and his WS5 means he hits an awful lot. Add in the much higher chance of splatting IC's, and being able to punch a vehicle with S9, and it really is a no brainer.

Charging Berzerkers kill stuff plenty good on their own that the champion doesn't need to swing at initiative.

Thanks guys, now I'm more than convinced to use Skull Champion A.

I always go with the power fist and a plasma pistol.

G

Like most people here i always give a Zerky Champion a Power Fist, However i never give Zerkys Plasma Pistols as i would rather have the 15points for something else.
15 points is almost another berzerker after all.

Plus even though the chance isnt that high i have killed Zerkys with there own plasma pistols several times, and therefore no longer use them.


GMort.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I always go with the power fist and a plasma pistol.

G

You don't want to give the Skull Zerker a Power Pistol. It is already a relatively expensive one wound model, and you don't want to take any chances of it being killed just for a single st. 7 shot that probably will never change the tide of any battle ever.

just letting you know, your points cost for your skull champions is off. In order to take a skull champion, it is 15 points in addition to the 21 point berzerker cost

extrenm(54) wrote:just letting you know, your points cost for your skull champions is off. In order to take a skull champion, it is 15 points in addition to the 21 point berzerker cost

I think we're just talking costs of the upgrades. We have the basic cost of the troop down.

But yeah PFs all the way.

61 pts for a power fist....

Thats a lot of wampum.

At least you get three attacks on the defense, and four on the charge. A Plague Champion gets one less attack and costs two points more.

Nurglitch wrote:At least you get three attacks on the defense, and four on the charge. A Plague Champion gets one less attack and costs two points more.

But PMs have Blight grenades, FNP and higher toughness.

Back on topic. I knew a guy who ran two Plasma Pistols in his squad of Zerkers and they never did anything but kill the pistol holder before a charge. It was quite funny actually.

with a unit that I usually run every turn, I do not see plasma pistols being worth it.

The only unit in Codex: Chaos Space Marines I can see using a Plasma Pistol effectively is the Chaos Sorcerer with Warptime.

Still, there's something to be said for a Skull Champion with a Power Weapon: 5 attacks on the charge at WS5, S5, and I5.

I think there is something to be said for running 'Zerkers with a power weapon. However, I think it depends on how many you are going to field. If it is just one unit, I would go power fist. If you have two units, I think you can afford to pick and choose your targets a bit better, so one unit with a fist, and one with a power weapon might work nicely. Three units, maybe two fists and one power weapon.

As for plasma pistols, I have really come to detest them in assault units. The chance for backfiring is a pain, but the chance that you will accidentally cause the unit to fall back out of charge range is very worrisome. One marines you are looking at half your misses hurting you (though it is a wound likely to save) and your hits are almost certainly going to kill. Throw in the rest of the bolt pistol fire, and causing 25% wounds is not unreasonable. Assuming you are greater than 1" away at the start of the shooting phase, if your opponant fails their moral it is extremely likely they are falling back out of charge range.

Granted, this doesn't always happen, but I have had enough tau fall back just out of melee range, then rally to shoot me in the face to make me consider not even shooting bolt pistols, much less wish I had paid 15 points to make it more likely they will run.

Wehrkind wrote:I think there is something to be said for running 'Zerkers with a power weapon. However, I think it depends on how many you are going to field. If it is just one unit, I would go power fist. If you have two units, I think you can afford to pick and choose your targets a bit better, so one unit with a fist, and one with a power weapon might work nicely. Three units, maybe two fists and one power weapon.

The fist is always better for merely ten points more. The 'zerkers themselves put out quite a large number of wounds on the charge, and the powerfist can then focus on powerfistin' IC's and whatever, or adding insurance to the combat resolution.

Why target the IC when you could go for his easier-to-kill cronies and then run him down in Combat Res?

I agree with having at least 1 unit with a Power Weapon Skull Champ, that kind of Skull Champ is scary against horde Infantry (Gaunts, Ork Boyz, etc.) and other big units. If he needs some tank-busting punch, give him Meltabombs. Although the Power Fist is only 5 points more, I think it offers some flexibility to take the Power Weapon/Meltabombs configuration, since it makes use of the Champ's high charge-Initiative.

I never fire the Plasma Pistol in my Zerker unit. I just have the pistol there to enable me to stack low AP or insta-kill wounds on a single model. It occasionally saves me some pain so I feel it is worth the points.

Shooting before assaulting is a dicy proposition as it is. I seldom do it. First there is the chance of killing everyone in your charge range. Second there is the chance of giving Space Marines the opportunity to use Combat Tactics and simply fall back 2D6" and deny the charge.

Democratus wrote:I never fire the Plasma Pistol in my Zerker unit. I just have the pistol there to enable me to stack low AP or insta-kill wounds on a single model. It occasionally saves me some pain so I feel it is worth the points.

Coul you give an example of when you did this? I'm not questioning your judgement but I can't think of one off-hand.

In defense of the plasma pistol its not a bad idea if you are being tank shocked repeatedly by tanks with low armour like Raiders, Trukks and Rhinos. I wouldn't sacrifice my skull champ but a zerker with a plasma pistol why not.

ueberyak wrote:

Democratus wrote:I never fire the Plasma Pistol in my Zerker unit. I just have the pistol there to enable me to stack low AP or insta-kill wounds on a single model. It occasionally saves me some pain so I feel it is worth the points.

Coul you give an example of when you did this? I'm not questioning your judgement but I can't think of one off-hand.

Sure. In my last tournament I ended up having my Zerkers fight against a large Black Templar squad. The unit of 8 Zerkers took 17 wounds, two of which were from a power fist. Rather than having two of my Zerks get insta-gacked I placed both power fist wounds on the Plasma Pistol Zerker (as well as the final left over wound) and then placed 2 regular wounds on the remaining models. This meant I absorbed 3 wounds with the doomed Plasma model, took 2 armor saves for the seargent, and took a total of 12 saves for the remaining 6 models. The Seargent and 3 mooks survived. If I hadn't had that Plasma Pistol I would either have had to sacrifice the seargent or I would have lost an extra mook.

Democratus wrote:
Sure. In my last tournament I ended up having my Zerkers fight against a large Black Templar squad. The unit of 8 Zerkers took 17 wounds, two of which were from a power fist. Rather than having two of my Zerks get insta-gacked I placed both power fist wounds on the Plasma Pistol Zerker (as well as the final left over wound) and then placed 2 regular wounds on the remaining models. This meant I absorbed 3 wounds with the doomed Plasma model, took 2 armor saves for the seargent, and took a total of 12 saves for the remaining 6 models. The Seargent and 3 mooks survived. If I hadn't had that Plasma Pistol I would either have had to sacrifice the seargent or I would have lost an extra mook.

Aaaah, I get it. I thought you meant stacking wounds on an enemy model. I'm going to give this a shot.

DonkeyCannon wrote:In defense of the plasma pistol its not a bad idea if you are being tank shocked repeatedly by tanks with low armour like Raiders, Trukks and Rhinos. I wouldn't sacrifice my skull champ but a zerker with a plasma pistol why not.

Uhm...Berzerkers are fearless. Why do you care about tank shock?

Democratus wrote:
Sure. In my last tournament I ended up having my Zerkers fight against a large Black Templar squad. The unit of 8 Zerkers took 17 wounds, two of which were from a power fist. Rather than having two of my Zerks get insta-gacked I placed both power fist wounds on the Plasma Pistol Zerker (as well as the final left over wound) and then placed 2 regular wounds on the remaining models. This meant I absorbed 3 wounds with the doomed Plasma model, took 2 armor saves for the seargent, and took a total of 12 saves for the remaining 6 models. The Seargent and 3 mooks survived. If I hadn't had that Plasma Pistol I would either have had to sacrifice the seargent or I would have lost an extra mook.

I agree with this but, a plasma pistol for 'zerkers is +15 points. Isn't it much more cost effective to just buy another berzerker at +21 pts?

Against a dark eldar ravager or raider with lots of shots its worth sacrificing 1 model to prevent it from shooting.

A question about the 17 wounds from the BT player. Wounds are doled out according to initiative so he must have charged through cover and not given his marines frags grenades allowing them all to strike at the same initiative right? Just wondering how that played out.

That's correct. I was in cover and he assaulted me without grenades. Though the same logic for wound allocation works when being shot as well.

As for the "just buy another model" approach. The unit started at size 10 and was transported in a Land Raider. Can't fit any more 'zerkers in there.