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I have had a fair bit of luck with them myself, but I see practically no posts regarding them in the new book, so I was wondering what the "official" pronouncement on them is. Worthwhile or no?

at around 300pts for a fully kitted squad, they come in at a bit more than a fully kitted tac squad with transport, but bring a lot more to the table.

Well, I guess you mean SM Bikers?

Bikers are rather expensive and more a harrassing unit able to take on shooty units or to pop tanks.
Another problem is that they are not scoring, and there are better non-scoring units like Sternguard or Terminators.
If you want them scoring, consider White Scars led by Captain on bike or Khan himself.

More specifically, I am asking about a bike-based army. 3 or so maxed squads as troops (any captain on a bike), with fast elements as support.

is there a general consensus about these kinds of armies?

0ldsk00l wrote:More specifically, I am asking about a bike-based army. 3 or so maxed squads as troops (any captain on a bike), with fast elements as support.

is there a general consensus about these kinds of armies?

There is no consensus.
There are two kinds of builds: Ravenwing and White Scars.
Ravenwing (see DA codex) is able to take Biker squads with Assault Bikes and Landspeeder as troops and can split it into combat squads (four at most).
This is similar for White Scars, but with only two combat squads.

I've seen two RW armies at the GT Heat 1 and they did not very well.

In general, toughness 5 is not sufficient to offset the low model count that bike armies suffer from.

I think that with combat tactics space marine bikes can easily be a VERY competitive army i the hands of a skilled player.

Their problem is that they cannot compete with other top tier builds lash preys for low model count hgh cost armies and nob bikers are just as fast and 10 million times more killy. There are no weak spots to a green tide ie. you can't focus on a weak spot of the army and weaken it further dividing in 2 a tactic that's very useful to this army. You could probably beat a dameon crusher list just by running away and shoting then contesting all the OBJ's and winning via VP's.

But it would make a mockery of a tier 2 or mechanised build if it was played right.

That means it's inbetween to classes making it so that there's no consensus about wether or not thy're good.

SM bikes are not competetive in a points analysis comparison.

They look cool, are fun to play but will not win you a tournamanet in most circumstances.

Pure bike armies will stomp some armies bad and get owned by others. Bikes are great but only in the right situations. They work great in combo with deathwing termies. I agree if you wanna be top tier at a tournament like ard boys you will probably not do well. If a RTT you will probably do fine if they are painted well.

I had a friend who played White Scars for a while and he had an all bike army.
They are a blast to play and play against but they are just not top tier sadly.
Like Yermom said they will get owned by Lash and Biker Nobs (although I'd like to see that).

Maybe one or even two units of bikes in a regular army might be effective but you could probably be spending points and cash somewhere better.

I think a squad of scout bikers is a good unit. There are not a lot of cheap units to draw from.

G

So far I have been undefeated with a build of 3 maxed bike squads, 1 command biker squad, khan, 2 typhoons and 2 dirt-cheep preds. Not sure whether the record is thus-far representative of a harder tourney setting, but outflank coupled with 24" speed and 3+ cover seems to work well; if I come in piecemeal, I can still LOS most ranged shooting till I have enough bikes to matter. Biggest advantage thus far has been able to concentrade 900+ pts of bikes on one point in the opposing army. Biggest disadvantage has been bike squad's inability to handle major casualties. However, with TB and 10 wounds per squad, the new edition has really lessened this, and opened the door for late-game objective capping with shot-up bike squads.

What manner of armies are you saying bikes will be weak against? I am trying to get a better picture of what I may run into.

Biker Nobs, Jetseer Council (ironically both bike builds), horde Orks, Daemonzilla, Crisis Tau Bomb, and probably Battlewagon shooty Orks, although I think your riders would have a decent chance against this one.

It's not a terrible build, or an unfun build, but competent players with potent lists should be able to chop through your models before you can do the same, which is what makes it difficult to compete with. I'd say your build has a decent shot against any shooting line, though.

Reecius wrote:SM bikes are not competetive in a points analysis comparison.

You dont think that a 12" move, Turbo-boost, twinlinked relentless bolters, extra melta weapons, T5 and outflank are worth less than 9 pts a guy?

no i dont, and here is why.

A biker is a bigger model, barely shoots more effectively than a normal marine and assaultsjust as poorly, however they do last a bit longer. They just dont hit that hard for their points. And, one of th ebiggest issues for me, is that you lose 1/6 of them every time you move through cover, which really limits your ability to assault. I think you are better off with assault marines and Shrike if you want a mobile marine force.

now, the biker command squad is a different story. With Khan and a lot of power weapons, that thing hits like a ton of bricks, almost like nob bikers. thrown in a chappy and you have a brutal unit, which is also brutally expensive.

scout bikers are worth it too i think for a deepstriking army. I have used them since 4th and they are even beter now. For the points they can make a huge difference.

However, if you are winning with them, then that should be all the proof you need really. I am happy to hear that as I love biker armies and have a ravenwing army myself, it just does not see the board very often =)

Just think about home many units in the game ignore your toughness 5 with shooting (anything plasma, melta, etc) and will beat you in assault (any dedicated assault unit such as stealers, harlies, a large mob of gaunts or orks, etc), those are the units you will be facing in abundance in tournies.

Hello!
A bike based army would look good,but I would think
that they would be severely limited.With any 40k army
you need to have a reasonably balanced force to counter
all threats.

One thing I think folks are missing is that bikes can be taken as troops. This adds a whole new dimension to the marine army, since it allows a scoring unit to be extremely mobile.

I agree that in a fast attack slot, there are better point for point options. But in a troops slot they provide much needed mobility, especially in dawn of war deployment.

Oh bikes, I agree that the only way to use bikes is with Kahn or Sammel. I just went to a tourny with a death/raven list and it was fairly good. There is almost no way this list will ever table someone, and you will most likely loose to top tier armys. But, this kind of list will beat some middle and low lists, and the stupid commander. The only real power to this list is that you basicly get to choose your fights, and when that is taken away (lash, other fast armies) you are in trouble. So, I say do it. You will have fun, have few models to paint, and surprise some people, but you wont win often.

Taken as troops is something that is worth taking a look at for sure (although I still think a 10 man tac squad in a pod or rhino will serve better), but in an all bike army, not so much. Every casualty just hurts too much and the damage output is too low.

Keep in mind that with the vast movement advantage, you have something that is really hard to quantify; the ability to control the initiative and almost always choose your fights. the relatively lower amount of shooting output of a squad, I feel, is countered by their ability to almost always shoot first, choose their fights, and concentrate several squads more easily on weaker portions of the opposing army.

I dont think that they look great on paper, or in raw mathhammer simulations (because if you just drive them senselessly at stuff, you are gonna lose anyhow), and they are certainly not a force that plays themselves, but I think that they provide a huge player advantage in that you are free to control the flow and initiative of the battle.

just my $0.02

N.B. I Have been using the obscene command squad on bikes with khan and a ton of power weapons lately, mainly because most of my units aren't terribly powerful assaulters. It is pretty powerful, and hasnt lost an assault yet. Chaplain rides along in 2k+.

well hey, if it works for you well done. I could never beat good armies with my ravenwing, but perhaps I just wasn't running the army well enough.

the mobility is great, I agree, but I always found that the army just lacked punch, as I have said. But, that is just my experience.

To increase the model count, I'd take scout bikers as a fast attack option. Also, I think that having a LR or two to use as mobile cover, and AT magnets, would be a boon to biker armies.

Reecius wrote:well hey, if it works for you well done. I could never beat good armies with my ravenwing, but perhaps I just wasn't running the army well enough.

the mobility is great, I agree, but I always found that the army just lacked punch, as I have said. But, that is just my experience.

I had played RW in the last edition. I agree, they are pretty weak compared to the new bikes. the biggest advantage to the new bikes is (other than drastically lower Pts cost) is the ability to take very large squads. RW never had that, and is now also hampered by the downsides of fearless.

As to the modelcount: I have been fielding 33 bikes(3 of which are attached ABs), 2 speeders, and 2 predators in 1750. not much less than what most marine players round here have been fielding. certainly more than a lot of powerbuilds I have seen. I can max out at around 46 bikes in this pts lvl, but lose the tastycommand squad and my longer range support.

Reecius wrote:Taken as troops is something that is worth taking a look at for sure (although I still think a 10 man tac squad in a pod or rhino will serve better), but in an all bike army, not so much. Every casualty just hurts too much and the damage output is too low.

I don't advocate taking more than one squad of bikes, but they make a great 3rd troop choice that has mobility. When I use them, my 3 troops are 2 tactical squads and one squad of bikes.

I've never run an all bike army, but I've beaten them pretty soundly. I don't think an army of all bikes is viable.

I like to run a list with Kor'sarro Khan and a command squad on bikes. They are a viscious unit. If you have the points, you can load them up with pairs of Lightning Claws and depending on your stance, RAW says they can all also have Storm Shields. Though I'm a fluff nut so I don't upgrade the Apothecary since it is not a 'Veteran'.
However, more to your point, I also typically take a 5-man bike squad with an attack bike w/ multi-melta as an extra scoring unit. They usually pop one or two vehicles before my opponent crushes them. Every game I've played with them, they seem very squishy. Perhaps I need to try a full 8-man plus Attack Bike and see how it does.

The command squad on bikes with the total loadout is hard core. I have found in general that bikes that simply shoot as their primary ability are not that great... however bike mounted units that excel in close combat have always been great units in general.

G

I've found that the full size bike squad isnt an overwhelming assaulting unit, but I kind of prefer it that way. I'd rather rout the target squad on their turn anyway, so that I have access to TB on my turn for the shooting my opponent is going to put out towards them.

Full strength is a necessity for an all bike army because casualties will happen, and you want a few bulletcatchers (plus the AB's free wound) so that you dont have to allocate, or pull out special weapons, or the sarge w/ fist.

as to the command squad, I think LCs are overkill. I take:

apothecary (no gear)
champion (free pwep and shield, plus WS5)
standard bearer (plus fist)
2 X chumps with Pweps.
5X bikes

It runs 290 pts. claws and SS's would drive that price through the roof, even more so. With Khan, it hits like a ton of bricks. Not amazingly durable, but with bike movement its pretty easy to keep them LOS from most nasty shooting, and Khan's furious charge helps to reduce return attacks significantly (17 S5 powerweapon attacks thin out most units). More importantly, if it does bounce off what it assaults, it wasn't the majority of my overall points (like nob bikers).

actually throwing a SS or two in there isn't a bad idea for absorbing powerfist attacks. although I agree, with Khan's furious assault, the unit hits really hard.

I do agree on that point. 2 SS's on the powerweapon chumps will also decently soak the nasty insta-kill shots that I usually face when I wipe a unit on the assault, and dont have TB protection.

Remember, the unit also has FNP when all else fails.

If I ran the bike mounted command squad I would take two meltaguns, some storm shields and power fists/thunder hammers.

G