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After watching one of my loyal guardsmen staunchly fire his grenade launcher at the enemy, only for it to scatter just far enough to destroy his face. The range? 8"!!!

I just thought if you are close enough, say 24", you should use one less die, and if it's farther than 48", use an extra one to balance it out.

thoughts?

Not an unreasonable idea. It would be rather difficult for someone trained with a weapon (this can happen to Space Marines with Rocket Launchers or Plasma Cannons) to blow themselves away like that at close range, but when your enemey still is not on top of you, simply by misjudging the range.

However this works more against tanks then anything, especially for the Imperial Guard who already has difficulty hitting their intended targets. I would scale it back to 12" and leave out adding an extra die, just to keep things simple and reasonable (you can't scatter back onto yourself at 12" range).

DDD [Dakka Double Deposit] Post.

Got to love it when you shoot at something right in front of you, and you hit one of your own units behind you...

Well, I am not too worried, ever since I purchased my loaded scatter die, things have been going pretty well

Hey Jim, you were right! I WAS holding it backwards! Jim?

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Hey Jim, you were right! I WAS holding it backwards! Jim?

lol


Yeah, 12" seems more reasonable, that moves danger close range back to about 4" and doesn't overpower it or have to over compensate by gutting long range accuracy.

Before 5th edition came out I was talking about rolling to hit with blast and large blast weapons, and a miss would simply be how much the blast missed its target by. Multiply the miss distance by two for moving shooters.

So, say a BS4 model takes shot a blast weapon while standing still and rolled '2'. That blast scatters 2", so you roll the scatter die and move the blast marker in that direction.

I was thinking in that way too, but I was thinking; roll to-hit, and a miss scatters.
but that doesn't take into account the fact that it is easier to hit something (or at least near it) at close range, and mixing it will complicate it and slow down gameplay. I think if it just scatters one less die within X" it will be simple, quick, and fix the problem.

Illeix wrote:I was thinking in that way too, but I was thinking; roll to-hit, and a miss scatters.

Simple yet effective at the same time. I really, really like this idea.

I actually prefer Nurglitch's idea. It is simple, neat, and solves the problem nicely.

Honestly, any of these are better than the current "66% of the time, a really strong wind might pick up in a random direction" rule.

6e would do well to implement one.

Nurglitch wrote:Before 5th edition came out I was talking about rolling to hit with blast and large blast weapons, and a miss would simply be how much the blast missed its target by. Multiply the miss distance by two for moving shooters.

So, say a BS4 model takes shot a blast weapon while standing still and rolled '2'. That blast scatters 2", so you roll the scatter die and move the blast marker in that direction.

Would this not guarantee an autohit?

A standard trooper may miss with 1,2,3 so your scatter may move a 3" or 5" template only 1-3".
I think this way you hit any vehicle or unit of more than 3 models for sure.

Is those "direct hit", when successful rolled to hit,placed by the shooting player or his opponent?


But if have to admit it could be funny for IG to "autohit" with blast/large blast templates.

1hadhq:

No, it would not guarantee an autohit, not anymore than basing the hit on the hit-sides of the scatter dice. Particularly if the firer is moving.

A blast marker is 3" in diameter, so deviations of 1" will cause a hit to the original target (indirect hit to vehicles depending on where the marker deviates), while deviation of 2"+ will not, because a deviation of 2" is greater than the radius of the marker.

A BS3 weapon's template may deviate 1"-3" while it is standing still, while a moving BS3 weapon's template would deviate 2"-6".

Basically the deviation will be tied more tightly to the weapon's BS and will only require computing the scatter in the advent of a miss.

Nurglitch wrote:1hadhq:

No, it would not guarantee an autohit, not anymore than basing the hit on the hit-sides of the scatter dice. Particularly if the firer is moving.

A blast marker is 3" in diameter, so deviations of 1" will cause a hit to the original target (indirect hit to vehicles depending on where the marker deviates), while deviation of 2"+ will not, because a deviation of 2" is greater than the radius of the marker.

A BS3 weapon's template may deviate 1"-3" while it is standing still, while a moving BS3 weapon's template would deviate 2"-6".

Basically the deviation will be tied more tightly to the weapon's BS and will only require computing the scatter in the advent of a miss.

You would still need the scatter dice. And a miss would be translated to a scattered hit, not a miss, so a low bs gives you a greater scatter where a BS roll gives a total miss.This could make blast weapons better,but also make them mandatory because your
3"/5" template would either score a direct hit or scatter 1-3". Most blast templates come from ordnance or heavy weapons and will
always be fired when standing still,the few rapid fire/assault weapons to benefit may do fine with your idea.

Actual rules substract already the BS of the unit, but i admit that 1-3" or 2-6" is far better than 2d6-X"

TL weapons with blast template: actual rule is to reroll both, scatter and scatter-distance.
your rule may demand to reroll to hit only ?

barrage weapons with blast/large blast templates: do they use barrage rules, so ignore your "to hit roll"because thereis no TLOS? or do you change them too?

1hadhq:

Yes, of course the scatter dice would still be needed for computing the direction of scatter for misses.

Twin-linked weapons would function as normal twin-linked weapons: If you miss, then you re-roll to hit. If the second roll misses, that's how far it misses and then roll the scatter die to see where it goes.

For barrage weapons, there's two ways to go about it:

1. If we were inclined to complicate matters slightly, then I would suggest rolling to hit and multiplying misses by a factor of 3 unless a friendly unit could see the target point, in which case the scatter would only be multiplied by a factor of 2. This would represent firing blind in the former case, and with a spotter in the latter case.

2. Otherwise, follow the usual process of rolling to hit and scattering in the advent of a miss, with the deviation being multiplied by a factor of 2 to represent the inherent inaccuracy of shooting blind.

Nurglitch wrote:1hadhq:



For barrage weapons, there's two ways to go about it:

1. If we were inclined to complicate matters slightly, then I would suggest rolling to hit and multiplying misses by a factor of 3 unless a friendly unit could see the target point, in which case the scatter would only be multiplied by a factor of 2. This would represent firing blind in the former case, and with a spotter in the latter case.

2. Otherwise, follow the usual process of rolling to hit and scattering in the advent of a miss, with the deviation being multiplied by a factor of 2 to represent the inherent inaccuracy of shooting blind.

1) barrage isn't "firing blind", it can't use TLOS but it is fire directed to an area,not a target unit.

Example: WWII artillery was able to score a hit every 2-3rd shot,so the actual scatter die already represent 50year old tech very well.

Example 2: Imperial guard basilisk (BS3):

-firing (WH40k 5th mode)= in range + scatter + possible distance to scatter = 1-12" at 66% or direct hit at 33%.
-firing (nurglitch mode) = in range + to hit + (scatter if miss) = 4+ => 50% direct hit , scatter 50% => 1-3 x2/x3 = 2-9".

Boosts artillery nicely

But i still doubt you can miss with less scatter and large blast vs standard size vehicles/units.
I do think this would be too good and we may receive a heavy price tag for such rules.

I know, we might actually see some Barrage weapons on the board, rather than left at home in favour of weapons that occasionally hit what they're supposed to hit.

So, there is two options that are viable (i.e. useful yet not overpowered)
Use one less scatter die within X" or roll to-hit and a miss scatters, maybe both...

That's how I'd like to see it in 6e.

In general, artillery units already pay for their ability assuming that they will hit exactly what they were supposed to 100% of the time, so I doubt there will be much of a price jump, if there is, it will more likely be a price "skip." I have had my Basilisk hit exactly what it was aiming at every turn and it still didn't make a huge difference (unless you count the second turn where I knocked out their Predator, but I paid 125pts for my Basilisk). It mostly has to do with the points density of your opponent then with your own accuracy.

In my nid army i have warriors with Deathspitters, and i have to admit that i like the 5E rules how they are. their normal BS2 would be hitting on 2/6 anyway and i haven't had any issues with backward scatter. Though this may because anything that close to me has probably already been charged or too weak for me to bother shooting at. That's beside the point though. What they have right now works, and it works well. Everything that would have had a hard time to shoot now has a better chance to hit. Anything that has betting well enough before now has about the same overall if not better {given that now anything partly under is auto hit} and their high BS can easily make up for all but a bad scatter distance. the BS5 on a Dark Reaper Exarch does wonders for his tempest launcher. and a Carnifex with 2 TL-Deathspitters dosn't matter that he only has BS2. imo the rule works well things with a low BS will have just as hard a time hitting with a non blast weapon and blast weapons shouldn't be inhearntly easier to hit with, just more for crowd control.

Yeah, that works for 'nids. If it's too close, assault.

It seems like you don't mind the rules because your model only hits 1/3 anyway, but a guardsman should hit half the time.

The roll to-hit looks really good now...

and removing a scatter die within 12" is common sence, if youre close, it's harder to miss, let alone accedentally hit something behind you.

I think the scatter rules are OK, not great, but workable.

I wish twin-linked blast weapons you had the option to re-roll only one set of the dice instead of both.

If someone already suggested it please say so just to tired to read right now. I was thinking having the direct fire from a tank didn't move and all direct fire from other templates that didn't scatter from the last edition rules only roll a D6 and minus ballistic skill. While tanks moving or indirect be the 2D6 minus ballistic skill because for indirect the solders should have a good idea where the round is going to be with the training they had. Why the 2D6 still you might roll a 12 minus 3 because of being Guard would make it like someone said the wrong coordinates or strong wind or even the math was wrong (and yes there is math in artillery so if someone screwed up a number it would be off by a little or a lot) so I think that would make it reasonable.

I dunno. I think it's just fine as is. And it makes sense enough. So they're closer, this doesn't mean your going to have a better chance at getting a direct hit with that mortar. Missile launcher, are you really going to stand up in front of a squad of armed guys trying to shoot or charge at you and take careful aim? More than likely your going to pop up just long enough to try and point it in the general direction you want to go, and hope you don't pull the trigger too soon or too late so it goes off in the wrong direction.

Now, for grenades or demo charge, I can see something about playing with it a bit. Provided it doesn't slip out of your sweaty palms as your swinging it. All those blade like talons on those bug creatures charging at you are rather nerve-wracking to look at afterall. Or the chain-axes of those traitor marines.

Makes sense enough.

Never had a problem but I saw a game where a LRD was 6" away from a monolith. Fired it's demolisher cannon, scattered back over the LRD, hit near the rear (just for blast marker reference, AV used was Frontal) and take out now only the LRD but the squad of stormtroopers behind it. . .

There is no reason that should happen so I'll endorse your idea.

The shell could bounce off the tough-as-nails monolith and detonate behind the tank? Even better, the shell could go through the wibbly teleporter door and materialise behind.

Sometimes it does make sense for crazy scattering. With grenades, for example, the enemy could throw them back. Some of the bigger ordinance, however, makes a lot less sense. I like Nurglitch's idea of scattering on a miss, but by however much you miss by (so a 1 is worse than a 3) and also maybe times two or three anyway (because random, nonsensical scattering is fun!)

dancingcricket wrote:I dunno. I think it's just fine as is. And it makes sense enough. So they're closer, this doesn't mean your going to have a better chance at getting a direct hit with that mortar. Missile launcher, are you really going to stand up in front of a squad of armed guys trying to shoot or charge at you and take careful aim? More than likely your going to pop up just long enough to try and point it in the general direction you want to go, and hope you don't pull the trigger too soon or too late so it goes off in the wrong direction.

The problem with that is that it makes the general assessment that all the solders of 40k just regular civilian style of fighting where you don't know where your round is going. I been around trained solders all my life and asked them everything that was about how training goes and all that and the rule doesn't make sense on a grand scale of the game. For IG conscripts yes it will make sense to pop up and fire not really knowing where the shot will go but for a Space marine, Tank, or walker with a targeting system it should only scatter a D6 minus the ballistic skill since wind or something to make it slightly off target goes in between the point of fire and the point of impact but not that off usually. I could see it for indirect being 2D6 minus the ballistic skill it makes sense really.

eh, just cap the max scatter distance at 1/2 the range of the shot (ala Necro) and it will be fine. You can still hurt yourself by fireing large blasts at 1-2" ranges, but if you fire a big bomb at that distance, you diserve the chance to hit yourself.