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What would happen?

Could Nob bikers handle a 5LR list?

Is this another option for basic marine lists (or deathwing?) as a good defence/counter against BikerNob Lists in tournement rather than HAVING to include a unit of TT/SS terminators in their own LR?

Where do you get the points and slots for 5 land raiders?

Nob Bikers are most deadly at 1500-1850 points, after that the metagame can catch up to them.

Lets say you get 4 landraiders plus the terminators in order to get a non heavy support land raider, that is 1200 points right there. only 550-650 pointsd left for troops, an hq, and anything else you might want.

Cheapest you can get 5 landraiders in a sm army is to get some allied DH inquisitors, for about 1350 bare miniumum, but those two DH land raiders can only transport the Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord + Henchmen

Plus then you need an HQ and troops.

All those Lascannons will do little against the coversaves the Bikers get. Want a Crusader? Well sorry but those bolter wounds get a FNP roll. Reedemers are great until you find out every single nob biker has different wargear so they need to be hit by AT LEAST two flamestorm cannons before a single nob biker falls.

At lower points levels this will be very basic HQ's & troops.

Plus that Powerclaw carrying Warboss on the charge with the attack squig might have a decent chance of carving open a landraider each turn.

Of course if you kill one Nob Biker unit the other will still be running around.

IMO land raider spam would not be an effective list against Nob Bikers unless there were units within those Land raiders that could inflict some heavy hurt onto the bikers.

I agree with most of what asugradinwa says.

In the end you have to two armies that suck at killing one another. KP missions will be pretty evenly-matched, depending on what the Ork player brings and how well he hides the fragile stuff. For objective missions, the Land Raider player will have an edge because he can tank shock units off of objectives and sit on them to prevent bikes from getting within 3".

I believe that nobz will have a more difficult time with LR spam due to the terminators being able to get off the charge almost guaranteed.
Nobz will charge in and destroy one of the raiders, the 5 or so Thunder hammer terminators pop out after it is destroyed and then they get to charge to nobz. You should be able to drop about half the squad with your thunder hammers.
I would say HQ wise you would want Lysander due to the str 10 hammer and eternal warrior. He can stand toe to toe to the warboss and have a good chance of winning. Also calagar for the same reasons. If you are going for cheap Cassius with his toughness 6 and FNP can lock up the nobz for a wile, Also the litany of hate (i refuse to call it the new name) will help quite a bit with the thunder hammers chargeing in.

It will still be an uphill battle due to the nobz ability to out race you and probably hit whatever scoring units you may have.

I think it's a pretty even fight, assuming that there are at least 10-15 assault terminators, simply because land raiders can keep speeding around 12" and Nobz can only hit them on sixes. Depending on how well the Nobz player can roll sixes, he might pop the raiders or he might get whittled down. I'd say advantage goes to the Marine player, though, call it a 60/40 split.

It really depends on what's inside those Land Raiders. Otherwise, I think attrition is on the side of the Orks. Especially when you consider random game length and the need for those land raiders to actually sit on top of objectives. If they're not moving more than 6" a turn, they're toast.

This is where a pure Deathwing army could excel since your terminators count as troops (assuming you take Belial).

G

Another place Deathwing excel:

putting 13 models on the table in 1750 pts

lol

Three standard LRs and 2 redeemers would put a pretty sizable hurt on a nob bikers list. Six twin linked lascanons firing every turn will chew threw a bike nob squad faster than you might think (six hits, ~5 wounds ~3 dead bikers per turn) Killing three bikers then allows you to tank shock them with the redeemers (moving 12 inches each) and possibly breaking them. It's not even that hard to prevent charges on the lasraiders, just landwall the squad you aren't focusing your guns on with the redemers after they bust through the squad you are. If they manage to kill a lasraider then they will have to deal with a terminator assault squad, which after previous casualties will almost certainly break them.

I don't see this as a case of two armies that suck at hurting eachother fighting, I see this as a case of one army that sucks at hurting the other fighting an army that just needs some creative positioning to crush it.

Much better would be 3 landraiders with sufficient termies to handle the nob bikes. 5 landraiders can't beat nob bikes in assault, which you really need to do in order to win.

Your math is bad shuma since bikes will be boosting for 3+ cover (why wouldn't they unless they are krumping LRs in assault?) and the warboss will be attached and soaking at least 2 lascannon wounds that wont remove a model.

Shooty armies can't shoot nob bikes off the board in 2 turns. 6 lascannons and a couple of flamers aren't going to either.

People need to remember that ork bikers come built in with 4+ cover saves. So thats going to limit your lascannon shots. Nob bikers also come with painboys which will negate a lot of your redeemer and hurrican bolter damage.

Nobs with powerclaws on the charge are S9, warboss is S10 with 6 attacks. Thats more than enough to really hurt your landraiders. Especially when immobilized results are actually a good thing for next turn charges.

As for the termies inside, unless they are assault termies, they go last. Nobs get 4 attacks normally WS5 S4. Your going to drop some termies just from failed saves, sure they will get to attack, and it will only hurt worse once the powerclaws strike. It gets much worse if the orks can charge. S5 I4 WS5.

The biggest issue the orks have going against them is low unit numbers. You will only have two scoring units and 5 total units in 1750 points. If the landraiders concentrate, they can force a hard fight. In a KP mission though, the orks will probably win easy, as the marines are bringing a minimum of 7 (not including termies).

The biggest issue for orks will be luck on the damage tables. Warbosses and Nobs with Pclaws can all destroy landraiders, it will just be determined by how many 6's they can roll. The terminators that may or may not be along for the ride are going to be a non-issue for the most part. A unit of 9 nobs with or without an attached warboss just put down too much smack for your average 5-6 man termi squad.

Nob bikers are the devil!

Understated Reecius, the whole Ork Codex is the devil, since by the time people mutate their armies to fight Lootas out come the Nob Bikers, by the time you mutate again you will now be facing Ork Battlewagons. Maybe by 2010 after Orks have won all 6 Grand Tournaments again maybe GW will bring out massively overpowered Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard or Necrons since it is way too late to produce a competitive SM or CSM codex.....

Jayden63 wrote:People need to remember that ork bikers come built in with 4+ cover saves. So thats going to limit your lascannon shots. Nob bikers also come with painboys which will negate a lot of your redeemer and hurrican bolter damage.

Aha! Psycannons! That'll do it!

Lots of Grey Knights+Lots of Psycannons= Dead biker nobz?

AP4 and ignores invulnerable and cover saves, and with some pretty potent hitting power to boot. Get a purgation squad, and let them loose. 4 psycannons(one purgation squad) nets you 12 shots, and if you don't move that turn, you can shoot further then the nobz can move. They ignore cover, and they go right through the biker's armour save.

One purgation squad at 12 shots per turn hits 8 times, and wounds around 5. The bikers aren't able to save any of them. No matter how you distribute the wounds, they have to take a moral check.

Just take two of those, and you'll be cleaning up one mob of them a turn.

Throw in some terminators with psycannons, and you've got guys who not only can outshoot them, but will beat them in CC too.

And if your opponent is so kind as to use Ghaz, just wait until he Waaagh!'s, and then just hammer him with psycannons.

KFF? No problem! Psycannons!

See, Psycannons aren't the bane of Daemons, but the bane of orks! ...well... until you get a green tide... then it's Holocaust... but that's a different story.

Fafnir wrote:
AP4 and ignores invulnerable and cover saves, and with some pretty potent hitting power to boot. Get a purgation squad, and let them loose. 4 psycannons(one purgation squad) nets you 12 shots, and if you don't move that turn, you can shoot further then the nobz can move. They ignore cover, and they go right through the biker's armour save.

First, cybork bodies for a 5+ save are pretty standard. Second, you need 3+ to wound. Third, I don't know a whole lot of people who play that the psycannons ignore cover saves.

Fafnir wrote:
One purgation squad at 12 shots per turn hits 8 times, and wounds around 5. The bikers aren't able to save any of them. No matter how you distribute the wounds, they have to take a moral check.

Nope...you take moral checks for casualties not wounds. Since all 5 wounds are assigned to different models, the orks have suffered no casualties whatsoever. Remember, nob bikers have 2 wounds.

Fafnir wrote:
Throw in some terminators with psycannons, and you've got guys who not only can outshoot them, but will beat them in CC too.

GKTs lose in hand to hand against nob bikers, unless the entire squad is equipped with thunder hammers, in which case its a mutual death situation.

Fafnir wrote:
And if your opponent is so kind as to use Ghaz, just wait until he Waaagh!'s, and then just hammer him with psycannons.

Nob biker armies have two squads of nob bikers with 2 warbosses on a bike. Ghaz doesn't show up with nob bikers.

Centurian99 wrote:

First, cybork bodies for a 5+ save are pretty standard.

And Cybork bodies are invulnerable. As the codex says, only armour saves may be taken against psycannon bolts.

Second, you need 3+ to wound.

That's still pretty good, 2 out of 3 shots that hit end up doing the damage. There are stronger weapons for the job, but really, why waste them on

Third, I don't know a whole lot of people who play that the psycannons ignore cover saves.

Then they're wrong. Page 18 of the Daemonhunter Codex: "NOTE: Only Armour saves may be taken against a psycannon, invulnerable saves may not be taken." Although it only mentions invulnerable as not being able to taken, it also specifically says that ONLY armour saves may be taken. Cover saves are not armour saves, therefore, coversaves may not be taken.

Fafnir wrote:
Nope...you take moral checks for casualties not wounds. Since all 5 wounds are assigned to different models, the orks have suffered no casualties whatsoever. Remember, nob bikers have 2 wounds.

Yeah, this is my fault here. I was thinking about the codex, and not the update.

Fafnir wrote:
GKTs lose in hand to hand against nob bikers, unless the entire squad is equipped with thunder hammers, in which case its a mutual death situation.

Well, let's pretend we're running what I run(because what I do should always be the standard, because I'm cool like that), against the nobbies. Grand Master with psycannon and 5 terminators, one with psycannon. No matter what, if the bikers want to get close to the GKTs, they have no choice but to get hit by psycannons at least once. If they try to get to them and shoot at the same time, they end up taking more and more wounds, well failing to make them back against the GKTs(unless you constantly get armour saves of one, like I do). So that's already one round of shooting that they have no choice but to endure. Assuming they're at the magic range where only the psycannons can hit, they take 1.7 wounds from the GM, and 1/3 from the GKTw/P. That's 3 wounds on the spot. Nice and nice.

Now, being in the magic psycannon range, you're at a bit of a risk, you need to be really careful if you want to get that charge. So, I'll calculate for both GKs getting the charge, and Nob bikers getting the charge.

First, Grey Knights(because I'm biased like that... even though I collect both armies). Total of 20 attacks. Hit on 3s, wound on 3s, no armour save, 5+ invulnerable, no FNP, as all Grey Knights that are Justicar and up wield power weapons. Because the Boss is an independant character, the Grand Master makes damn sure to attack him him(you'll see why)(note that, despite being an independant character, the Grand Master's Terminators are a retinue, and as such, the Grand Master cannot be targetted). So, 5 attacks from the Grand Master on the Warboss, and then 15 more from the normal GKTs on the nobz.

The Warboss takes about 1 wound from the Grand Master.

The Terminators inflict about 4 wounds on the Nobz.

The Grand Master uses the ability of his NFW to 'Kill the enemy outright'.

So, in total, the bikers have taken 5 wounds for resolution's sake, and have taken 8 wounds in total, along with the loss of the warboss.

Then, the nobz turn. This is done assuming that there are 3 powerklaws in the unit. 21 normal attacks(painboy wounds on 4+, which they would normally anyway), 9 powerklaw attacks. Of the normal attacks, it results in 0.85 wounds. If it's put on the Grand Master, no harm done. If not... one Terminator gone. Powerklaws result in 2.5 wounds. Total count is 3 wounds. Since the Grand Master counts as an upgrade character, no one in their right mind would actually put instant death on him, so in total, we have about 3 wounds on the Grey Knights, compared to 5 on the orks.

Bikers take Morale Test at LD8.

Were the orks to get the charge, GKT and Nobz(without klaws) would strike simultaniously, while the GM would strike first at I5, would still go first. He has 4 attacks, and has a 90% chance of instantly killing the warboss again. Greys get 10 attacks, nobz get 28. Greys inflict 3 wounds, Nobz inflict 1. Power klaw nobz get 12 attacks, resulting in 3 wounds.

That means that the Grey Knights win by one wound, forcing a Morale test at LD 9.

And that's if the GM doesn't have a holy relic on him. If he did, things could end up far worse for the bikers.

Fafnir wrote:
And if your opponent is so kind as to use Ghaz, just wait until he Waaagh!'s, and then just hammer him with psycannons.

Nob biker armies have two squads of nob bikers with 2 warbosses on a bike. Ghaz doesn't show up with nob bikers.

Read your FAQ on Daemonhunters from GW on Psycannons/cover saves....you're wrong. (BikerNobs get 3+ or 4+ cover and FNP vs Psycannons)
Grey Knights hit BikerNobs on 4+ not 3+, you're wrong again. (waagghh banner)
A GM and 5 Terminators might be able to swat a bunch of things in CC, but considering that you've been so wrong on SOOO many points here, its not really worth arguing. I'll just say that 5 Grey Knight terminators including the GM (who's targetting the Warboss as you indicated, the only correct thing you've really said) even while charging, even with influence of a Holy Relic, will not kill even a single model (besides the warboss) with completely average rolls all the way around in a properly built bikernob unit...unless armed with T-hammers....which Centurian already pointed out is mutual suicide. (and there is another unit of bikernobs in the wings)

You've been wrong on so many points, this CC thing is another one. Trust me, Grey Knight Terminators cannot take on fresh units of Bikernobs in HtH, and small arms fire will do nothing to them.

Not that I know anything about Grey Knights....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/SO_YOU_WANNA_PLAY_PURE_GREY_KNIGHTS:_a_tactica_for_the_masochistic

Grey Knights are quite probably the worst possible choice for a matchup against Nob Bikers, although Daemonhunters with half a dozen Land Raiders can probably make enough successful tank shocks to push them off the table.

But as Deadshane1 has said, your facts are far, far off. Nob Bikaz laugh at psycannons, and an intelligent Ork player will protect his Warbosses.

*prints out Daemonhunter FAQ*

I wrote that all at 4 in the morning anyway. Whatever, I was wrong.

Let us also not forget nob shooting. Yes, I said shooting.

12" move +18" range is an effective 30"

A unit of 10 bolts out 30 TL BS 2 S5 shots. Thats about 16 hits, 10 or so wounds, 1-2 GK termies drop out. Since out 10 or so wounds is bigger than your unit of 6 there is a chance you loose the psycannon.

Just throwing it out there. Nob bikers actually have a lot of options when the unit is fresh and new. Its part of why they are so dangerious.