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IG Codex, p42:
"Infiltrators: If not equipped with a transport vehicle Veterans may be able to use their experience to take up an advanced position. They may therefore use the Infiltrators rule if it is permitted for the mission being used..."

IG Codex, p43:
"Infiltrate/Deep Strike: Storm Trooper squads without a transport vehicle may either Infiltrate...if the mission permits."

Rulebook, p94:
"During deployment, players may declare that units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy..."

The FAQ has nothing about this issue.

With GW's stance of "Codex trumps Rulebook", it looks like Storm Troopers definitely can't since they are not allowed to even purchase Infiltrate when they have a transport. Hardened Vets, on the other hand, seem to have the rule, but just can't use it if they have a transport, but the wording is extremely unclear.

What do you guys reckon?

Yes. Possession of the infiltrate special rule grants the ability to outflank, but outflanking is not infiltrating.

Veterans "Infiltrators" rule does not equal the Infiltrate special rule. "Infiltrators" states that if not equipped with a transport, they may use the infiltrator rule. You need to have the infiltrators rule in order to outflank.

So (the way I read it), Vets need to be able to infiltrate in order to outflank. Since they do not have the infiltrate ability (again, they instead have the "Infiltrators" ability) when in a chimera, they can not outflank.

Box if you're making a distinction between Infiltrators and Infiltrate, then stormtroopers and hardened vets can't infiltrate either. You prepared to make that argument to an IG player across the table from you?

Yes they can outflank, I believe they have to actually be in their transport if it hasn't been set up already on the table though.

Nope, if they choose to ride in the transport it can come with them. It could also be left in regular reserve and come in on the long edge.

Centurian99 wrote:Box if you're making a distinction between Infiltrators and Infiltrate, then stormtroopers and hardened vets can't infiltrate either. You prepared to make that argument to an IG player across the table from you?

Not necessarily, they have their own special rule that isn't the Infiltrate rule from the rulebook but allows infiltration, Personally I'm of the mind they can only make a flank manouvre if they aren't in a vehicle as silly as it seems because of the way the rules are written.

I'd love to have an official ruling on this. However, in the meantime I play it as they can Outflank if they don't have a transport...since GW says go by how it's written.

Capt K

Actually, they can't infiltrate if they have a transport. But outflanking =/= infiltrate.

I wonder what will be in the new dex...?

True, but it says in the entry that they lose the skill if they buy a transport...thus why I don't think they can.

Centurian99 wrote:Actually, they can't infiltrate if they have a transport. But outflanking =/= infiltrate.

CaptKaruthors wrote:True, but it says in the entry that they lose the skill if they buy a transport...thus why I don't think they can.

Centurian99 wrote:Actually, they can't infiltrate if they have a transport. But outflanking =/= infiltrate.

Not entirely true. They can't infiltrate if they have a transport, but they don't lose the Infiltrators special rule. They simply can't use it to deploy using the Infiltrators rule. But they still have the rule...so technically, they can outflank.

3rd Ed. codex conflicting with 5th Ed. rules.

Well, the phrasing is just odd enough that it can be argued that they actually lose the skill or are not allowed to have it at all if they take a transport, as opposed to just losing the ability to make use of the skill. Hence the difficulties. IMO it doesn't matter and they can Outflank regardless, but I do see where others are getting their point of view.

Ahh, well I think the key to that line of thinking is understanding genestealers with lurk. They don't have infiltrate either, but they get scout and then they get to outflank.

So doesn't that set a precedent for a unit with a skill that can outflank that isn't infiltrate?

I think the IG can outflank in their chimera.

As much as for my own better understanding as anyone elses I decided to take this back to basics.

Outflank rules: wrote:
"During deployment, players may declare that units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy... Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport, but if they do so they must move onto the table embarked in it."

Hardened Veteran rules: wrote:
"Infiltrators: if not equipped with a transport vehicle Veterans may be able to use their experience to take up an advanced position. They may therefore use the Infiltrators rule if it is permitted for the mission being used. If it is not permitted then they must set up with the rest of the army."

In this situation the veterans do not naturally posess the pre-requisite infiltrate or scout special rules for making an outflank, infiltrators is a clearly quite different ability to infiltrate. It however specifies that if they don't have a vehicle they are entitled to use the infiltrators(which despite wording is clearly a reference to the infiltrate USR). The main thing that makes this dubious is that I'm treating the same word (Infiltrators) as being synonymous with Infiltrate at one point, and a different meaning at another. It seems the only possible interpretations then are either:

1) the Veterans can use an ability that doesn't exist, their Infiltrators special rule is completely and entirely useless
2) the word Infiltrators is synonymous with Infiltrate, meaning the Veterans may not only infiltrate as per their codex rules but additionally may outflank.

Storm Trooper rules: wrote:
"Infiltrate/Deep Strike: Storm Trooper squads without a transport vehicle may either Infiltrate at +X pts per model and/or Deep Strike at +Y pts per model, if the mission permits.

Here it seems that the Storm Troopers already possess both the Infiltrate and Deep Strike rules, rather than a third rule like that of the veterans, however they must pay for the right to use them. It appears that as a unit possessing the Infiltrate special rule they are entitled to an outflank, regardless of vehicle or not, and would even be able to make this move without paying the points cost of infiltrating by RAW since they are not actually infiltrating.

So in hindsight, I believe that both units should be entitled to make an outflank move with or without a vehicle.