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I'm debating to go with Harlequins or Striking Scorpions. Which in general do you prefer and in what type of setting. My 1500pt army will probably end up being a footslogger type of army with 2-3 squads of guardians, farseer, avatar, Wraithlord main force and 2 fire prisms.

From what I've read a lot of people seem to like Harlequins because they are a really good counter-assault/clean up crew type of unit. I'd take a shadowseer in the troupe so they could run forward and engage if they have to (without getting shot down from far away). Scorpions don't seem to kill quite as efficiently but also seem to last a bit longer (3+ save vs 5+ of harlies). I've played some 500 and 1000 point games messing around with some friends (1 is Orks and 1 is Tau). A problem I had against the Tau is that my fairly shooty army got outshot before I could get close enough with CC. An advantage to scorpions is that they can start the game in a wave serpent, move flat out, and quite possibly assault on turn 2. This would buy some time for the main force to get into position/move forward. With the harlequins I doubt they could get into combat until turn 3 (unless my opponent is moving forward to engage me). However, most armies are not shooty like Tau so I'm trying to find what would work best in general, not just against Tau. What do you guys use? What do you prefer? Does it all depend on situation or is one or the other more generally applicable to the average game? Thanks for any insights.

I haven't used Scorpions yet, but I plan to. The mandibasters and dual weapons mean that they get a lot of attacks at the strength of a marine. The exarch can also dish out a lot of damage with chainsabres or a biting blade. Being mounted in a wave serpent means they're more likely to get to close combat, and thus more likely to get kills. Though the harlies have rending with the Kiss, they still get fairly expensive after a while.

Take a five man squad of each. The harlies have a troupe master, shadowseer, and Harlequin's Kiss(es), and the scorpions have an exarch with chainsabres & Stalker. The scorpions cost 102 pts and the harlies cost 156. The scorpions get a Wave Serpent with shuriken cannons for 100.

The scorpions will have 3 attacks in close combat (pistol & sword, mandiblasters) that each strike at S4 (scorpion chainswords), and the exarch has 4 S3 attacks that can re-roll failed hit/wound rolls. The exach entry says that the chainsabres involve gauntlets that house twin-linked shuriken pistols, but I am unsure if these can actually be fired or work more like digital weapons. On the charge, each basic model has 4 S4 attacks, and the exarch has 5 S3 attacks that re-roll.

The harlequins have Hit & Run and Furious Charge due to their special rules. Each basic harlie has 3 attacks that have a chance to rend, the shadowseer can mask fire, and the troupe master has a power weapon. On the charge, their strength and Initiative go up by one, meaning that each hits at S4 I7 (I5 is faster than most units anyway), and they have 4 attacks that could cause rending. The master has 5 attacks which ignore saves.

The 5+ invulnerable save of the harlies makes me hesitant to use them, even though they are devastating on the charge, but the important thing is that you have to hit your enemy first. If you screw up the rolls, then that T3 and 5+ save aren't going to help much. Plus, for about 40 more points (compared to the cost of the harlies) you can get a vehicle for the scorpions that will ensure tansport to an assault and help out with shooting. The harlequins can be an effective unit, but I prefer the scorpions. Almost as good, but for less; and if the scorpions get assaulted (unlikely, but possible) they have a better chance of surviving.

Why not just take banshees with their fancy power weapons?

I use scorpians most of the time, simply because they can infiltrate/outflank. They can outflank in a serpent. Put them in a serpent and in reserves and roll them in to attack their long range shooters. This will help the rest of your army move up.

Im a big user of Harlequins, i have had excellent success, but YMMV.

When i run them i always take 7 or more [8 or 10 are great numbers], i always take a shadowseer and troup with power weapon, the shrieken cannon [death jester] can be a waste if you are running [you can take them in a wave serpent if you have one spare], i run them to get the most out of the shadowseer and waste a units shooting if the opponent screws ups.

You dont have to take kisses but i always do on everyone except the troup master. having over 30 attacks really helps kill a few things.

Personally i love harlequins and they complement my army, you may find different

SuperCow wrote:An advantage to scorpions is that they can start the game in a wave serpent, move flat out, and quite possibly assault on turn 2. This would buy some time for the main force to get into position/move forward. With the harlequins I doubt they could get into combat until turn 3 (unless my opponent is moving forward to engage me).

There is nothing stopping you from doing something very similar with your harlequins. Buy a wave serpent for any squad in your army (like your guardians) and then deploy them outside the serpent. Next deploy your quins all within 6" of the hatch. On turn 1, the quins move up to the serpent and embark. The serpent can then start it's zoom over to the enemy. The end result is that your quins end up being just as fast as the scorpions. The differences are that you can't deploy inside the serpent so there is a possibility of taking some first round shooting (but with the shadowseer, that seems unlikely) and when you disembark from the transport, you can run on the turn you charge.

As for general usage, scorpions and quins function very differently. The quins are a glass hammer where as your scorpions are more of an anvil unit. The quins (generally speaking) do more damage (particularly to hard targets) but they are much less able to take damage. If a squad rolls up on them in a transport and unloads at short range, your quins are dead. However, nothing can touch them at long range. Scorpions are quite the oposite. They are rather tough for eldar units and can soak up a fair ammount of abuse before they get killed. This means that they are much better for situations where you know you will wipe out your target on the first turn or in situations where you know you can't get away without taking some shots on the way in. It also makes them better for protracted combat. If you're going to be stuck in for several turns, then the scorpions are more likely to come out of the fight with more live members than the quins would. The exception to this (and there's always one) is if you are going up against a lot of power weapons. In that case, the quin's 5+ I save will do a lot better than the 3+ armor save that the scorpions will not be getting.

Phoenix wrote:
There is nothing stopping you from doing something very similar with your harlequins. Buy a wave serpent for any squad in your army (like your guardians) and then deploy them outside the serpent. Next deploy your quins all within 6" of the hatch. On turn 1, the quins move up to the serpent and embark. The serpent can then start it's zoom over to the enemy. The end result is that your quins end up being just as fast as the scorpions. The differences are that you can't deploy inside the serpent so there is a possibility of taking some first round shooting (but with the shadowseer, that seems unlikely) and when you disembark from the transport, you can run on the turn you charge.

It's not a welll-known rule, but vehicles can't move flat out on the turn that a squad embarks or disembarks.

P.70 : Fast transport vehicles. You can still use those star engines (extra 12'') though to travel 24'' after embarking troops in the same turn.

Remember that quins have the hit and run rule and furious charge

Razerous wrote:P.70 : Fast transport vehicles. You can still use those star engines (extra 12'') though to travel 24'' after embarking troops in the same turn.

But the Eldar codex says that "troops may not embark or disembark that turn (if star engines are used)"-p.44

P. 44 Eldar codex:

<star engines>

"it may move and additional 12" in lieu of shooting, but troops may not embark or disembark that turn."

Sorry. Im a touch tired & will stop posting rubbish soon..

:(
haha no worries! Its how we all learn.

Well, Harlies of course.

Scorpions are too slow. If you infiltrate them, they will get shot down early in the game. If you let them outflank, they might arrive at the wrong board side.

Harlies are a perfect counter-strike unit and they can approach the enemy along a flank. Keep a unit in front of them (Jetbikes, tanks, Vypers) so that they get a cover save.

For thier points.. scorpains do thier job well. You either try and shoot ur ap 2/3 weaponary at them in the first few turns or they charge in and start doing mean things. A power claw exarch will do a nice amount of damage too.

Funny I've been debating this myself and posted as much just now in my army list thread. I'm no vet with eldar but I suppose it depends on the army. If you need counter charge, harliquins are un-paralleled. For a more offensive unit the scorps have resiliency and more easily accesible mobility but the harliquins are still more brutal overall.

I love Scorps, but their resiliency seems a bit overrated. T3 means bolters wound on 3s, and heavy bolters wound on 2s. It doesn't take much for even these guns to force a few failed saves.

If I were to take an Eldar assault unit, I'd probably go all out with the Harlies for the Fleet, the hitting power and the Veil. Eldar infantry are squishy no matter how you slice it, might as well make them hit like a truck.

It,really, depends on what your up against. I'm a defensive player and hate the 5++ save on the harlies. Even with fortune it's not enough. Scorpions don't have fleet, but they do have stealth which gives them +1 to cover saves. I use both, but have far more success with the Scorpions.

I know this isnt quite the point of the thread but imo, neither. Banishes. Power weapons. there i said it. With Harlies you get Furious charge and hit and run, 5+ invul and could get rending a +4 a pop but when it comes gown to it, you cant count on that rending. But with Banshees the power weapon is a sure thing. they still have fleet and sure on a s6 but give the exarch the +2S weapon and he does have s6, and with WS5 and some 3 or 4 attacks on a charge your looking into serious killing power. You can give them counter attack so even if their assaulted you can still stand a good chance where as Harlies they get 1st attack but still only S3.
As for the ss side, they are stealth, S4, and the simple fact is that only the exarch is going to be ignoring armor and he will then have to attack at I1.
thats just imo though.

All eldar units must be used to compliment each other. harlies are best walking behind your wraithlord and keeping all assault troops away while it walks up the table.

Scorpions like to come in from the side or infiltrate with your pathfinders. Cover saves make them very resilient and any enemy unit must assault through cover to move the rangers off the objective.

Banshees are a middle ground. They cannot take shots, but the power weapon is better in close combat. However, with Orks and Drop Pod Marines being the most common lists, banshees play second fiddle to the other two.

The amount of attacks (similiar due to mandiblasters as harlequins) means even MEQ's are forced to roll many armour saves, that 3+ you have yourself is respectable and an exarch an happily whittle down eventually. With I5 the bulk of the scorps strike first or simu against most things.

Combined with pathfinders... Genious. Instant CC screened firebases.

Also with a biting blade an exarch caan take out walkers. It wont ever be pretty but for 5pts its worth it incase bad things happens.

Banshees in a transport or not at all. If they get assualted, their still at 100%. The enemy gets bonous charging but the mask = I10 on first round of close combat (any) annd counter-assault = +1 to A.

Harlequins.. Im loosing faith.. I keep playing with them & im not sure.

Now, I've never played against any of these three units, as or against, I've only played against a shooty Eldar army, but really, the Harlequins don't look too exciting on paper, other then simply being really hard to shoot at. That's great and all, but nothing really seems to jump at me that says 'GET THESE GUYS, THEY'RE THE ONES THAT WILL KICK ASS.'

I mean, banshees obviously look like they can kick some major ass, and scorpions look like they'd be useful in the right situation, but the Harlequins, as badass as they are, just don't really look too great.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me, but I just don't get what the big deal about them is.

O god.... Niether!

Im not trying to say that either one of this selections suck or anything, but good luck getting them to work in a 1500pt army as well as dire avengers or banshees do in 5th ed.

but if i had to pick between the two for 1500 pt. deffinetly scorpians - you got to really consider the very high rate of take and hold missions you will roll up.

Have a harlie squad running around, without farseer support. Charge things through buildings/cover etc then always try and hit & run away at the end of that assault. Then flee back through cover. You might get shot up by the squad you charge (although that should be pretty deaded) but everything else, unless you charged a very neat main battle line, will be further away & the chance of loosing a turn of firing is never a good thing. Ive used these guys and hitting, they hit hard. Use a troupe master to pump out unsavable wounds against meq/teq's and rely on rending for everything else. Use the shadowseer to make these guys survive & use thier specail abilities properly.

Ive used these guys and they do do very well.. Just not as amazing with a farseer with them (even with doomed targets and a 5++ rerollable) hence the loss of faith.

Dorfdorf wrote:I love Scorps, but their resiliency seems a bit overrated. T3 means bolters wound on 3s, and heavy bolters wound on 2s. It doesn't take much for even these guns to force a few failed saves.

On average it takes 40 bolter shots to kill 6 scorpions. That number goes down to 32 when you start using heavy bolters. So while you may take some casualties on the way in, taking enough damage from small arms fire to cripple the squad is going to take a lot of firepower (or at least I would call 20 rapid firing bolters or 10 heavy bolters a lot of fire power).


As a side note, good catch on that "troops can't embark or disembark on skimmers moving flat out" rule.

If are truely unsure, do what i did, grab a unit of 10 of harlequins [the way you like, i take all kisses power and shadowseer] and a unit of 10 striking scorps, the way you like em [i take biting blade, and try assault each other.

Phoenix wrote:On average it takes 40 bolter shots to kill 6 scorpions. That number goes down to 32 when you start using heavy bolters. So while you may take some casualties on the way in, taking enough damage from small arms fire to cripple the squad is going to take a lot of firepower (or at least I would call 20 rapid firing bolters or 10 heavy bolters a lot of fire power).

That does put things into perspective, but it's more realistic that all those shots can/will come over the course of 2-3 turns. I think I'm just disillusioned about Eldar assault units' point-cost effectiveness compared to other races' assault units.

If you take Scorpions, think about Karandras. This guy is pretty brutal. I battled such a unit in a multi-player game with my Noise Marine army. He refused to go down by shooting and even in cc he was quite resilient; too bad, my NM squads had no power fists.

Dorfdorf wrote:

Phoenix wrote:On average it takes 40 bolter shots to kill 6 scorpions. That number goes down to 32 when you start using heavy bolters. So while you may take some casualties on the way in, taking enough damage from small arms fire to cripple the squad is going to take a lot of firepower (or at least I would call 20 rapid firing bolters or 10 heavy bolters a lot of fire power).

That does put things into perspective, but it's more realistic that all those shots can/will come over the course of 2-3 turns.

You are certainly correct in saying that those shot will (most likely) come in over the course of several turns. However, I still think that's quite a lot of fire power that they are able to take before being killed / crippled. By comparison, it is unlikely that harliquins will be shot at all on the way in (although if they are, they die) so it may work out better to have them.

You must remember that the harlequins "should" have a shadowseer and only people within 24" have a chance of hitting

HOWLING BANSHEES people