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Monolith

Weapons that get additional armor penetration dice do not get extra dice against the monolith (pg 21 necron codex)

Dawnblade

O'shovah rolls 2d6+5 when rolling to penetrate the armor of a vehicle (pg 44 Tau codex)

Does O'shovah get 2d6+5 or 1d6+5? the rules don't say roll an additional die the way melta or chainfists do. I personally think he get 2d6+5 the same way zzap guns roll 2d6, the 2d6 isn't additional dice it's variable strength.

I think he would only get 1d6+5. Normally, you only get one die to determine armor penetration, anything else would be additional.

I can see your point of view, but not all methods of dealing 2d6 armor pen specifically say 'additional'. A Witch Hunters eviscerator says simply 'roll 2d6'. EDIT: Chainfists are the same way, it doesn't mention being additional, just 2d6.

I personally feel the it is 2D6+5, as there is no word of addition, it seems like a flat rate

I think I have to agree with spinach_chin.

RB, page 60 wrote:ARMOUR PENETRATION
Hitting a vehicle is no guarantee that you will actually
damage it. Once a hit has been scored on a vehicle, roll
a D6 and add the weapon’s Strength to it

So I think you can say the standard armour penetration is d6+Strength.
If you get more than one dice to add to your strength by any means then you have gotten an extra dice.

Zzap guns roll 2d6 for their strength so their penetration still is only d6+Strength, they have no extra penetration dice.

yeah this is a crazy gray area in the rules as both TMC's and meltas specifally say they get additional dice and are mentioned in the necron codex as being innefective but chainfists do not say additional can anyone else confirm deny that? Anyways from a fluff standpoint he should totally get full penetration as the dawnblade is clearly a sword of vaul designed for cleaving necrons up anyways.

Well, the Monolith's Living Metal rule clearly states that weapons that get extra armor penetration dice do not get them against the monolith, with the exception of Ordnance weapons...

ALSO, in the slightly newer "Second Printing" of the Necron Codex, the last line of the Living Metal rule says, and I quote:
"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for Armor Penetration using it's unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

Read the last 3 words of that rule "no matter what". Harsh.

Also, fluff wise: The Monolith IS portrayed to be the strongest "tank" in the 40K universe, so it does make sense.

If 2d6+5 is determining the strength of the attack, then you would normally roll 2d6+5 + d6 for armor penetration.

This clearly isn't the case. I agree with d6+5.

Yep D6+5.

The standard rules for armor penetration are Strength + D6. Any rule that adds a further D6 to this equation is most certainly "additional" whether the word 'additional' is actually included in the rule or not is irrelevant.

yakface wrote:
Yep D6+5.

The standard rules for armor penetration are Strength + D6. Any rule that adds a further D6 to this equation is most certainly "additional" whether the word 'additional' is actually included in the rule or not is irrelevant.

True.....but codex trumps rule book correct? Tau codex says that farsight rolls 2d6+5 for armor pen. So Farsight using the dawn blade standard armor pen roll is 2d6+5 not 1d6 + extra d6 + 5.

IMO shoot the monolith with rail guns str 10 FTW

Boyofdestiny205 wrote:

yakface wrote:
Yep D6+5.

The standard rules for armor penetration are Strength + D6. Any rule that adds a further D6 to this equation is most certainly "additional" whether the word 'additional' is actually included in the rule or not is irrelevant.

True.....but codex trumps rule book correct? Tau codex says that farsight rolls 2d6+5 for armor pen. So Farsight using the dawn blade standard armor pen roll is 2d6+5 not 1d6 + extra d6 + 5.

IMO shoot the monolith with rail guns str 10 FTW

Codex trumps rulebook when they disagree, they are not disagreeing. Regardless, the necron codex quoted above states you only ever roll 1 d6, no matter what.

He gets 1d6 + 5, not 2d6.

targetawg wrote:

Boyofdestiny205 wrote:

yakface wrote:
Yep D6+5.

The standard rules for armor penetration are Strength + D6. Any rule that adds a further D6 to this equation is most certainly "additional" whether the word 'additional' is actually included in the rule or not is irrelevant.

True.....but codex trumps rule book correct? Tau codex says that farsight rolls 2d6+5 for armor pen. So Farsight using the dawn blade standard armor pen roll is 2d6+5 not 1d6 + extra d6 + 5.

IMO shoot the monolith with rail guns str 10 FTW

Codex trumps rulebook when they disagree, they are not disagreeing. Regardless, the necron codex quoted above states you only ever roll 1 d6, no matter what.

He gets 1d6 + 5, not 2d6.

Boyofdestiny205 wrote:

Codex trumps rulebook when they disagree, they are not disagreeing. Regardless, the necron codex quoted above states you only ever roll 1 d6, no matter what.

But they do disagree as yakface said standard rules for armor pen are D6 + strength.

Farsight's standard armor pen roll is 2d6+5 no where does it say he gains an extra d6 its just 2d6+5.

But if you want i will follow the rules that you are stating which means farsight rolls D6+5+Strength against a Monolith.

Now before anyone says BUUUUUWAAAAA?????

Standard armor pen rolls are d6+Str Right?

Farsight with the dawn blade will roll 2d6+5+Strength (farsight is str 5 by the way)

Which means Farsight will roll 2d6+5+5 against normal vehicles and "following the rules" will roll D6+10 against the Monolith. Because and i quote "In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armor penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

One more time thats D6+5+unagumented str 5 for armor pen against the MONOLITH.

This is not a case of codex vs. rulebook, and even when that is the case it is only in a situation where two rules disagree.

Here we have one special rule in a codex vs. another special rule in a codex.

The Dawnblade gives farsight 2D6+5 for penetration against vehicles.

The Living Metal rule says that models never get to roll more than one D6 for penetration against the Monolith.


THIS IS NOT A CONFLICT OF RULES!

In one case you have a rule that grants and ability on the other hand you have a rule which restricts abilities.


In any game, the restriction always supersedes the permission. This is a basic fundamental part of any rules.

For example if I have a rule that says: "In the movement phase models move up to 6 inches".

But then in the rules for terrain I say: "Models that move through terrain only move 3 inches".


So which is it? The first rule says models can move 6 inches but the 2nd rule says that models can only move 3 inches? Which one takes precedence?

In all such cases the restrictive rule takes precedence otherwise the entire set of rules completely breaks down.


So in this case since the Dawnblade grants a bonus penetration die and Living Metal restricts bonus penetration dice from being used, you have to follow the restrictive rule.

Clearing one last thing up...

Farsights dawnblade just rolls 2d6 + 5 for armor pen. The 5 is his strength as far as I know, I've never heard of or seen anyone try to say "but i get to add my strength as well, so I roll 2d6 +10!"

I'm not going insane on this am I? This is how it works...right?

IMO the "no matter what" is just the writer making sure you understood that you don't get extra dice if using a weapon that would normally grant them. An infantry model with a melee weapon that grants 2d6+S AP is definitely getting a bonus dice same as MCs. Melta weapons get an extra dice in certain cases, so it's a bonus.

The Monolith is still a mess in cases where you can't be sure if it's a bonus or not. Spore Mines were FAQd to work as written since "it's not a bonus", same goes for the Vindicare's super shot. Melta Bombs have for some reason been left out even if they're never given the Melta rule (they don't have AP1 for example) or even called a weapon.

The Codex states 2d6+5. That is what Farsight does for armor penetration. No +5, no +d6, it is 2d6+5. There is no mention of a bonus penetration die in the Farsight entry.

Ignore the rulebook as Codex trumps.

I've not seen the amended Necron monolith text, but if what Centurion quoted is true, then I'd say it trumps Farsight's rules.

I honestly don't see where the confusion lies nor do I see a need to try to decipher a game designer's intent in this case.

IMO shoot the monolith with rail guns str 10 FTW

The Monolith is still a mess in cases where you can't be sure if it's a bonus or not. Spore Mines were FAQd to work as written since "it's not a bonus", same goes for the Vindicare's super shot. Melta Bombs have for some reason been left out even if they're never given the Melta rule (they don't have AP1 for example) or even called a weapon.

I agree with yakface on this, restrictive rules trump normal rules (even other dex's rules unfortunatly). I also believe that the 5 is his strenght in the (2d6+5 debate) because somebody else would have quesitoned that before.

The two quotes I QFT (couldn't figure out multiquote), Even farseight should be lugging a big gun around either in the form of broadsides or a hammerhead. Hopefully the new necron dex will clear up the crons multipal confusing rules.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:The Codex states 2d6+5. That is what Farsight does for armor penetration. No +5, no +d6, it is 2d6+5. There is no mention of a bonus penetration die in the Farsight entry.

Ignore the rulebook as Codex trumps.

I've not seen the amended Necron monolith text, but if what Centurion quoted is true, then I'd say it trumps Farsight's rules.

I honestly don't see where the confusion lies nor do I see a need to try to decipher a game designer's intent in this case.

Again, this is not against the rulebook, this is against the Necron codex, to be more precise the Living Metal rule:
"In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armor penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

Ok by reading this rule does that mean dreadnaughts have to use Str 6. The close combat arm augments his Str 6 to Str 10. I had though that powerfist and thunderhammers were double strength but from this rule you have to use the unaugmented strength of 4.

I think this is a crap rule.

The Venticar Assassin has an armor piercing round that does 3d6+3. By this rule it would not work on the monolith. I think this is crap.

The unagumented S of a DDCW is a base 10.

In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armor penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what.

In the same way a model with a powerklaw has an unaugmented S of double their normal S because that's the weapon's S. So a nob with a pk charging a tank would hit it with S8 instead of S9 because they don't get to augment the S of the weapon with the Furious Charge USR.

Eight Ball wrote:

Dal'yth Dude wrote:The Codex states 2d6+5. That is what Farsight does for armor penetration. No +5, no +d6, it is 2d6+5. There is no mention of a bonus penetration die in the Farsight entry.

Ignore the rulebook as Codex trumps.

I've not seen the amended Necron monolith text, but if what Centurion quoted is true, then I'd say it trumps Farsight's rules.

I honestly don't see where the confusion lies nor do I see a need to try to decipher a game designer's intent in this case.

Again, this is not against the rulebook, this is against the Necron codex, to be more precise the Living Metal rule:
"In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armor penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

And that's is exactly what I said when I said "I've not seen the amended Necron monolith text, but if what Centurion quoted is true, then I'd say it trumps Farsight's rules."

Okay, am I missing something here, who is Centurion?

I am again not sure how you people make a big deal out of these things.

Simply...Farsight has 2d6+5 AP, that is 2d6 + 5 (his strength). The Necron codex says 1d6 MAX, so he gets 16d+5 AP.

As for the VINDICARE assassin, his penetrator round only does d6 penetration.

====================================

The whole point of the living armour rule on the Monolith was to make sure most of the 'awesome' tank hunters don't work against it.

Only way to hurt the thing is brute force weapons, see Lascannons, Railguns, etc.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:Ok by reading this rule does that mean dreadnaughts have to use Str 6. The close combat arm augments his Str 6 to Str 10. I had though that powerfist and thunderhammers were double strength but from this rule you have to use the unaugmented strength of 4.

The Venticar Assassin has an armor piercing round that does 3d6+3. By this rule it would not work on the monolith.

Here is the answer from the Cron FAQ online

Q. Does a model with a powerfist/claw that
attacks a Monolith get to double its Strength for
armour penetration rolls?
A. Yes, powerfists/claws, thunder hammers, andso on still double their user’s Strength when
attacking a Monolith.

As to the Vindicar, I think I remember reading somewhere he gets the 3d6 but no extra dice for rending...cant find it currently.

yeah, the double STRENGTH thing I had seen is still there, but you STILL only get the D6 plus that (doubled) strength...

As for the Vindicare (that is the correct spelling BTW), I have never seen the 3D6, but if you can find that, it would be helpful.

Casper wrote:As to the Vindicar, I think I remember reading somewhere he gets the 3d6 but no extra dice for rending...cant find it currently.

You remember it from the Necron 4ed FAQ.
That FAQ is no longer in effect resulting in the Turbo-Penetrator being reduced to a single d6 vs liths.

Webbe for the save. Thanks man, wouldn't be suprised if we wind up haveing similar discussions when the new monolith comes out again (if living armor is still there).