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I play versus a very shooty tyranid army. He usually field 3 carnafex's with 2 twin linked devourers, 2 hive tyrants with 2 twin linked devourers, an assortment of warriors with devourers and gaunts and genestealers. I play Space marines and I have a really hard time even getting remotely close to tieing up the game, I've tried almost 20 different list styles, including some lists specifically geared to beat his list, and I'm still having issues. I just can't beat the re-rolling to miss and re-rolling to wound of his devourers. I hope you all can give me some tips and pointers, because I'm to the point of calling it unbeatable. We play at 1750 points.

What is he using to damage tanks and what are you using to damage his MCs?

He's using a combination of the s6 devourers, MC melee and genestealers to destroy my tanks, and I've tried everything from sternguard to antitank weapons to kill his MCs and none of it seems to work very well. The last game I gave my tactical squads power fists and assaulted the carnifex's but I couldn't kill them fast enough so he brought his genestealers in and killed the squads, he runs pretty much everything in one mass of units.

Yeah, let's see some army lists here. Or at least overviews.

Have you tried the new Assault Terminators? They're really good at killing those MC's.

Sniper scouts do pretty well against the MC's as well. Be sure to use their superior range though, as they get killed quite fast.

Tyranids (best approximation)

1 Hive tyrant w/2 twinlinked devourers +1s, +1bs
1 Hive tyrant w/2 twinlinked devourers, +1s, +1bs, wings
3 Carnifexs w/2 twinklinked devourers, +1s, +1bs
9 warrirors w/2 twinlinked devourers, +1s, +1bs
2x 12 genestealers
3x 8 gaunts

Space Marines (this is my last list I fielded)
Vulkan He'Stan
2 Ironclad Dreadnoughts w/ Heavy Flamer & Drop pods
10x Sternguard w/9 Combimelta & Drop Pod
2x Landspeeder w/ Typhoon missile launcher
3x 10 man tac squads w/flamer/multimelta/powerfist in rhinos

I've tried the new terminators and they work semi-well the problem is getting them into assault without getting shot at all, the previous list I had, had a land raider crusader make a beeline towards his MCs and try and spit the termis out to assault and kill them but that didn't work very often, and also with thunder hammers they swing at inititive one with 3 attacks on the charge iirc, and they hit on 3+ wound on 2+, which is great, usually means a dead bug, but then they get assaulted by the genestealers and locked down. if I give them lightning claws, the hit on 3+ and wound on 6+ re-rolling wounds, which doesn't nessisarly mean a dead bug. the issue with the thunder hammer is that they can all die before even swinging if I attack something other then a carnifex.

And the scouts work pretty well, but the issue is that he still gets saves against them, and I would have to take them in large numbers 20+ to sucessfuly have a chance at killing those bugs.

What was wrong with the LRC? There is no thing in his army that can really stop it and it can really put the hurt on genestealers with all the small arms fire.

Basically you need more Land Raiders.

Funny enough I play both Salamanders and Tyranids. I'm still adjusting to the new marines but a few things.

As much as I like Iron Clads, they are pretty easy for MCs deal with -- even the dakkafex has an even chance of destroying an iron clad when charged if it isn't killed first (which is unlikely unless it is already wounded). The HTs is even worse.

If you haven't already and have the models, I'd go with replacing the Iron Clads with vindicators or whirlwinds and trying the terminators in a Land Raider again. That way you have a shot at softening up the genestealers before they counter charge (which is key). Also forces him to spread out a bit, which is good.

Using drop pods seems like an autowin for the nid player as well, he can easily use reserves or just take on the army in waves as he sees fit (depends on the setup/objective). YMMV

Try Ko'Khan and rhino rush. LRR with khan and assault termies, snipers and a dread, possibly the new TFC providing fire support, and tactical rhinos to fill. If he hasn't seen it work yet, i'd promise you at least one win with that list.

I guess what I'm reading from these posts is that I can't make an army list to win against it that would be a balanced tournament list, because I would have to make a list to specifically counter his list, and this is what I was beginning to think.

Your question didn't ask "what's a good tournament build" - you asked "How do I beat a shooty nid army?"

That said, many of the above fit into viable tournament builds. Assault terminators in a Land Raider, in particular, are great. No Monstrous Creature can get within assault range of the Land Raider without being inside the Termies' assault range first.

Shooty TMCs are fairly weak in HtH. Genestealers aren't what they used to be - if you can shoot them down to units of 6 or less, they'll be fairly ineffective counter-assault support for the TMCs.

Thats true I didn't specify how I wanted to beat them, and that was my bad, the biggest issue I've been having with the MCs is the fact when I go hand to hand with them he has all of his other units there to join the assault. I guess I just need to increase the amount of units I have to counter him.

I noticed in his army list he hasnt given them extended carapace (if your info is correct). I also use the same setup (in terms of leaving the extended carapace out) and I lost BAD the other day by a guy who had 5 missile launchers in his army. He was practically downing 1 MC a turn. I would say that the ML is the way to go. Good against horde, great against MCs.

I play Nidzilla, so I know pretty well what will beat it.

Dreadnoughts won't. They will lose CC to almost any Fex, almost every time. They don't bring enough shooting to really benefit you.

Thunder Hammer Terms will eat a TMC for lunch, especially with Vulkan in the list.

Sternguard will eat TMCs for lunch, especially in a drop pod. 10x Sternguard wounding on a 2+, 20 shots, 13.33 hits, 11.11 wounds, 3.7 unsaved wounds. More often than not, they can kill a 4 Wound Fex/Tyrant without even needing their Meltas. You can easily fit 2x Pods of Sternguard in your list, and 3x is possible as well. That's pretty much 2-3 dead big bugs right there. I'd do the Tyrants first, they're a bigger problem in CC, and they're also Synapse.

Don't forget the No Retreat rule. If you get swamped by a bunch of Gaunts, even if they've got Warriors with them, chances are you won't lose as many models as you kill, if you focus on Gaunts. Now he's losing combat. He's Fearless, so now he's making extra saves. Even the Warriors that joined.

Stealers are less of pushover in CC, but they're not as amazing as people think. HBolters are a problem for them. Kraken bolts are a problem for them. 10x Sternguard, 20 shots, 13.33 hits, 6.67 dead Stealers. Still enough to assault you next turn, so have some backup.

Tough as a Fex is, if he gets stuck into a 10 man unit with a Power Fist, he's probably going to lose (or at least the Dakkafexes you're facing will). He'll kill 1 Marine per round, and take a wound or two from the Fist, and maybe another from the extra Marines.

As has been said, ML Devs can chop up TMCs, but less so if you tend to play with a lot of cover. Don't forget, TMCs need at least half their body covered to get a save.

Nidzilla is a strong list, but not at all unbeatable. If you're going to tailor a list to beat it, you should be able to handle it any number of ways.

I would stick with the list with terminators and the LRC.

Just have as much shooting as you can focus on taking out the genestealers, leaving your powerfists and terminators to clean up the MC's.

You should be able to hide a couple rhinos behind the LR to support the terminators on the turn they assault, as well.

landraiders are a real source of frustration for nids. That all round av 14 just sucks to deal with and you can keep moving back and shooting.

Something else to consider would be adding another priority tank, such as a preditor (either anti hord for the little bugs or all LC to deal with big bugs) or a vindicator (thats a large blast str 10 ap 2? should eat big bugs and little bugs the same).

I have run the terminator sergent w/lightning claws, 4 with th, and then a terminator chaplan (i play DA so he allows rerolls to hit but not sure for reg marienes). Had a friend use them against nidzilla and they downed 2 flex's, a tyrant, and died attempting to kill the fly tryant - he also ran 2 vindicars.

Phryxis had a lot of good points.

Using your Vulkan rules along with LR Crusader chock full of Assault Terminators (hell, go all hammers), you should be able to horribly beat up shooty TMCs.

Like Phryxis mentioned, one very difficult thing for Tyranids in 5th edition is losing a combat that is attended by multiple fearless units by a large margin.

- Blackbone

Well, I personally play a CC Nid army, so my advice might seem really simplistic (and probably expensive).

I hate to rewrite your entire list, but here goes nothing.

I wouldn't take the Dreads (If you want flamers to wipe out those gaunts, take a squad of devestators with Heavy Flamers. Much more effective). I wouldn't take the landspeeders either.

To tear right through those fexes and Tyrants, you need as many Lascannons as you can get your hands on. At least two predators (perhaps investing in some HK missiles on all your tanks as well. It's worth the points if it destroys a model that's ten times more expensive without it being able to do anything) with lascannons. Lascannons (I've found) tend to be much more effective against big nids than meltaweapons do, especially considering their range. This also allows you to free up space with your stermguard.

For the rest of the horde, I suggest as many Heavy Bolters as you can get your hands on. A Land Raider would help tremendously here (as long as you keep it out of range of the heavies until you destroy them with your predators), but at least outfit all your tac squads with as many Heavy Bolters as you can. If you can stand your ground, Heavy Bolters will end up a much better deal than Heavy Flamers will ever be (you will end up taking out more models).

I know it's completely different from your core list, but I've found las and HB-heavy marines to be one of my biggest problems when fighting Space Marines, so I hope this helps.

Buy three whirlwinds. It's about as cheap as good nid' killin' ordnance gets. Very efficient against his list. Use those in combination with a squad of three attack bikes with heavy bolters to take out the gaunts/stealers. Don't forget the attack bikes have bolters too.

For the MCs I would suggest a squad of assault terminators with TH/SS. Or maybe two squads of attack bikes with multi meltas. What can I say? I love me some attack bikes. There's nothing like a heavy weapon that can move twelve inches before firing to add to the range, or move twelve inches away to stay out of assault range. And at strength 8 the multi meltas would wound carnifexen on a 2. Onbce wounded they can easily be taken out in assault by a ten man tac. squad with a power fist.

Keep at a distance from his army until you absolutely have to. Let him come to you. A ten man squad with a power fist will usually kill a wounded carnifex. Keep to your rhinos to avoid your squads being chewed up by devourers until you have to get out. Also remember to focus on his scoring units when objectives are involved. I'm stating the obvious, I know, but sometimes it needs to be said.

I would advise against a land raider.



Edit: Yes, I have decided to pluralize the word "carnifex" as "carnifen" like oxen.

I made up a list for fun.

1x Space marine captain with power fist, digital weapons.

1x Command Squad with two flamers and two melta guns in a rhino with hk missile.

3x 10 man tac. squad with power fist, flamer, las cannon in a rhino with hk missile.

3x whirlwind

2x 3 man attack bike squad all with multi meltas

1x 3 man attack bike squad all with heavy bolters


I would hang back and shoot until he got to me, harrassing his MCs with the multi melta attack bikes. Remember the hk missiles. When he gets close enough, charge. The command squad is armed with enough versatility to either seriously damage an MC or gaunt/stealer squad with shooting before charging. The captain would stay with his command squad. I would also consider dropping the command squad for some assault termies, in this list.

Note: This only works because he takes such small gaunt squads.