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Hey everyone I need help beating a Chaos Thousand Sons (TS) army. I have tried with nids, and IG, right now I am putting a Witch hunter (based on IG troops) army together but I need help. The main problemI am having is getting him off the objectives. Not only is it a 3+ save but a 4+ inv and fearless. It is next to impossible to do anything short of bumping the table and starting over. Here is what I am up against (going from memory so might not be exact)
4 x 10 man squads of TS with soroc (with bolt of change, or whatever the str 8 ap 1 power is) just on the table
2 x 10 man squads in rhinos
1 pred with autocannon
1 deamon prince with wings
1 sorc lord in term armor with 6 man termie squad to go with (deep striking)

This was a 2500 point game and there was nothing I could do. My plasma killed more of my guys then his.

His whole army is fearless and has a 5+ inv save as the WORST. Battle cannons can't do jack. There has go to be a way to beat this or to just have a chance.

My next tactic is to take an assassin and kill his sorc in the squads, but that is only 5 models at most and if he doesn't make any saves.

Please help me, any and all suggestions are welcome.

In my experience with 1ksons, they are extremely short ranged. this means that if you have some nasty long-range support, they can remain relatively safe. their 4+ invuln isnt really that bad overall considering that most of the time you'd be shooting at marines in 4+ cover anyway, so the same tactics apply. Battlecannons work, but are not as spectacularly powerful as they used to be. Otherwise, focusfire on one squad at a time. If you can gain a movement advantage (not hard considering his guys are slow to begin with), you can dogpile units on objectives. I would plave his transports and predator on your "kill first turn" list if at all possible. His guys aren't too much better than codex marines in CC (other than the save, which doesnt come into play for anyone but squad leaders).

If his game is to castle on objectives and force you to push him off (his best bet, considering limited mobility overall) you have to make sure that you hit concentrated. trying to work more than one objective at a time works to his strengths.

Dont forget to use LOS to your advantage. Transports are great for blocking off his shooting from your units. If you really wanna give him a hard time, the culexus assassin is a good buy at it's cost, but dont expect miracles.

The Sarge wrote:Hey everyone I need help beating a Chaos Thousand Sons (TS) army. I have tried with nids, and IG, right now I am putting a Witch hunter (based on IG troops) army together but I need help. The main problemI am having is getting him off the objectives. Not only is it a 3+ save but a 4+ inv and fearless. It is next to impossible to do anything short of bumping the table and starting over. Here is what I am up against (going from memory so might not be exact)
4 x 10 man squads of TS with soroc (with bolt of change, or whatever the str 8 ap 1 power is) just on the table
2 x 10 man squads in rhinos
1 pred with autocannon
1 deamon prince with wings
1 sorc lord in term armor with 6 man termie squad to go with (deep striking)

This was a 2500 point game and there was nothing I could do. My plasma killed more of my guys then his.

His whole army is fearless and has a 5+ inv save as the WORST. Battle cannons can't do jack. There has go to be a way to beat this or to just have a chance.

My next tactic is to take an assassin and kill his sorc in the squads, but that is only 5 models at most and if he doesn't make any saves.

Please help me, any and all suggestions are welcome.

2 options, really:

1) Volume of Fire. Both Tyranids and IG can do this. Make him take as many saves as you can muster. Forget the low AP stuff, and just bring as many shots along as you can. A Thousand Son is no harder to kill with a multilaser than any other marine; a pair of twin-linked Devourers on a Tyrant will kill as many Thousand Sons as it would Ultramarines. As a bonus: there are fewer Thousand Sons than normal marines, as they cost quite a bit more.

2) Assault. This is for Tyranids only. Genestealers with Scuttlers and Feeder Tendrils: outflank as necessary, and jump right in. Thousand Sons are only marginally harder to kill in HtH than a normal marine (as they get a save from Rending). Close-combat TMCs can work as well, but get less value for their efforts, owing to the invulnerable save.

(Your IG should bring along a Daemonhunters Inquisitor Lord with a Psychic Hood. Shut down some of those Sorcerors.)

60 1ksons is still pretty tough. keep in mind that you will get a lot more mileage out of pouring in lots of shots out of individual squads (i.e. HBs>Autocannons) because of the increased chance of forcing the sorcerer to take saves, thereby limiting movement further, and taking out the AT shot.

Chaos gets way way better at 2500. Volume of fire kills 1K sons as you follow the JAM principle: JUST ANOTHER MARINE.

sure he has to make alot of saves but he will fail something soon enough.

That's honestly not the hardest list. The biggest attraction to 1k sons is the fact that they have AP3 bolters; playing horde armies reduces their potential somewhat.

Just use volume of fire. Don't try to damage them with high AP/ power weapons/ monstrous creatures, just throw as many bullets down the range as possible since a +3 isn't unbeatable. My 1,500 pt. ork list can reliably kill off a marine taq squad a turn, so at 2500 I'm pretty sure guard and 'nids could do even better.

For nids, use Dakka-fexes and Warriors with twin-linked devourers. The reroll to wound is vicious; they would even tear through my FNP nobs! TK suns will fall real quick to that type of firepower.

use tau as they will have to move close to fire at you with short ranged bolters and you can blow them up with lots of plasma!

I say go with orky logic,

No,but really I saw in the one WD the guy said his chaos army had trouble against orkish speed freaks the Tau and the .....aah,Necrons I think it was.

i agree send firepower blasting down careless of ap he is going to fail sometime on saving

Thanks for all the help. I played him again tonight and beat him pretty good. I changed things up a little bit and ran a Witch Hunter army with inducted IG. Using the new update for IA2 made the points for the vehicles less meaning more troops. I stretched the rules a little bit and still took Commisars for my IG troop. He was cool with that, the item he didn't like was that I took a medusa with the army since it is allowed with IA. He said he would have liked to know this before hand. I really don't see a problem with it but to each there own. He also didn't like that my chirmera's had autocannons on them. It has that upgrade in IA and IA2 but he likes to be strictly codex and nothing else. Does this make it a tainted win because of IA? I think I am going to start a a new subject on that question.

Again thanks for all the help!

i think it depends on whether you played an apoc style game or your standard force org. ..b/c IA was written FOR apoc..so....idk

Stick with codex unless your opponent agrees ahead of time to allow the use of IA/IA2.

G

killerklown_666 wrote:i think it depends on whether you played an apoc style game or your standard force org. ..b/c IA was written FOR apoc..so....idk

Not really - Imperial Armour volumes 1-5 predate Apocalypse.

Neither the autocannon Chimera nor the Medusa are much better than the "standard" variants (multilaser Chimera & Basilisk). The reduced prices for vehicles, however, is a fairly significant change from Codex standard. Generally, it is better to be clear with your opponent as to whether or not IA-type units are allowed, as otherwise you're not playing exactly the same game.

If your going to try sisters you should be fine. Lots of sisters with bolters, Immolaters and Excorsists. Faith points giving you AP1 shots with bolters should go a long way also.

The Sarge wrote:He was cool with that, the item he didn't like was that I took a medusa with the army since it is allowed with IA. He said he would have liked to know this before hand. I really don't see a problem with it but to each there own. He also didn't like that my chirmera's had autocannons on them. It has that upgrade in IA and IA2 but he likes to be strictly codex and nothing else. Does this make it a tainted win because of IA? I think I am going to start a a new subject on that question.

Again thanks for all the help!

Yes. Imperial Armor is not balanced to the same standard as the official codices.

Showing up with illegal IA vehicles and winning is like showing up with a 1850 point army fighting against a 1750 point army and then saying "I really don't see a problem."

It's only fun for the opponent if the game is fair.

Winning a game of 40k with Imperial armor is like winning a race against a legless, malnourished child. They are much much stronger than the average choices.

LordWaffles wrote:Winning a game of 40k with Imperial armor is like winning a race against a legless, malnourished child. They are much much stronger than the average choices.

That's just nonsense. Very, very few of the IA entries are even as good as the stock units. Yes, every now and again they slip in something silly-good (I'm looking at you, Infernus shells and Cyclops demo vehicles), but on the whole, IA stuff is underpowered for its points.

Janthkin wrote:

LordWaffles wrote:Winning a game of 40k with Imperial armor is like winning a race against a legless, malnourished child. They are much much stronger than the average choices.

That's just nonsense. Very, very few of the IA entries are even as good as the stock units. Yes, every now and again they slip in something silly-good (I'm looking at you, Infernus shells and Cyclops demo vehicles), but on the whole, IA stuff is underpowered for its points.

The truth is nonsense? Don't know what you're on about.

If half the things they include are just meh, and half the things are too strong for GW to allow into any regular codex, that is the perfect justification for it to be wrong to use IA rules, unless your opponent agrees to them.

You can play using any set of rules you want in a friendly game if you both agree to it beforehand.

This person is talking about walking in without telling the guy, and then whipping out a set of rules which aren't balanced and his opponent just finds out After the game is over.

Let's see, Imperial Guard heavies,
Leman Russ Demolisher w/ 24" range S10 AP2 ordinance. 155 points. Official.
Leman Russ Battle Tank w/ 72" range S8 AP3 ordinance. 145 points. Official.

Destroyer Tank Hunter w/ 72" range S10 AP2 ordinance. 170 points. Not official.
Leman Russ Vanquisher w/ 96" range S8 AP3 ordinance. AT shells for 2D6 penetration. 180 points. Not official.

Hmm... 15 more points to get TRIPLE your shooting range? I wonder why blizz didn't add an option like that in the imperial guard book under vehicle upgrades. Oh yeah, because it's TOO STRONG.
25 Points to get a 96" range ordinance multi-melta.

Winning with IA is like winning because your army has 100 or 200 or 300 more points than the enemy army. It's not legal, so give fair warning to your opponent so he can decide if he wants to fight 300% range ordinance.

Use 200 Hormagaunts. Sons fight like tacticools in closcombat (ie not very good). Take some dakkafexes to gun down the deamon. And a flyrant.

Final Destination

TheBloodGod wrote:Let's see, Imperial Guard heavies,
Leman Russ Demolisher w/ 24" range S10 AP2 ordinance. 155 points. Official.
Leman Russ Battle Tank w/ 72" range S8 AP3 ordinance. 145 points. Official.

Destroyer Tank Hunter w/ 72" range S10 AP2 ordinance. 170 points. Not official.
Leman Russ Vanquisher w/ 96" range S8 AP3 ordinance. AT shells for 2D6 penetration. 180 points. Not official.

Hmm... 15 more points to get TRIPLE your shooting range? I wonder why blizz didn't add an option like that in the imperial guard book under vehicle upgrades. Oh yeah, because it's TOO STRONG.
25 Points to get a 96" range ordinance multi-melta.

Winning with IA is like winning because your army has 100 or 200 or 300 more points than the enemy army. It's not legal, so give fair warning to your opponent so he can decide if he wants to fight 300% range ordinance.

Destroyer Tank hunter DOES have triple the range of a demolisher, but loses the blast template, making it a single shot weapon. It cannot take any sponson upgrades. You therefore pay 170pts for a single S10 AP2 shot, hitting on a 4+. One weapon destroyed result can make it useless. If anything, this is OVERpriced.

Vanquisher gains an extra 24" range and the option of AP shells. Again, when using an AP shell, the vehicle becomes a 4+ single shot (still counts as ordnance, but can't use the blast). This costs 175pts (30pts extra) - seems quite fair to me

I agree that you should always check with your opponent beforehand when you're going to use non-codex rules. Anything else would be attempting to 'trick' him into an auto-lose. But i think a lot of the things in IA are either overpriced or quite balanced. The rules for these sort of IG tank variants have been in use for quite a while now.