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Much like the title says I am looking to compile thoughts on various Tyranid units, builds and list now that 5th edition has been out for a while. I am looking for any and all feedback by the other players on Dakka.

Every new edition will bring about changes to various armies and it does appear that Tyranid were hit pretty hard. Some things 5th did that was harmful to Nids

1 Troops are needed to take objectives(66% of missions are objective based now)

2 No longer can you Sweeping advance into other units(and lets be honest here since 3rd edition that's pretty easy to block against) *Luckily we can still contest w/ our big bugs

3 Rending...nerfed...hard. Look it's not OUR fault that rending was stupidly good but GW saw it fit to keep giving every freaking army rending in some form.

4 And not really 5th edition per say but as the new codexes come out our point cost seem a bit higher than what they should be.

5 oh yeah....everyone getting "running" instead of shooting but not bothering to update in a Faq or anything such units as a Broodlord. No fleeting w/ you if you want to assault big boy.....

Just listing those off the top of my heads...let us list the benefits

1 Cover....everywhere. Termagaunts, or spinegaunts, provide mobile cover as we move across the board

2 Skimmers aren't gods anymore that can never be destroyed(worse if it's eldar)

3 And this one is my favorite....templates are placed than scattered. Hot..simply hot. Warriors w/ templates are so much fun


Now those are just big things come the latest edition but ask any Nid player who has been playing for a while and they will remember that we have had to evolve how we play for quite some time. Just seems like we have to do it again.....
Anyone remember Mycetic Spore list? Deep striking into close combat w/ Genestealers who have +1 Str while charging...yeah. That was amazing. Because of us, I'd like to think so at least, we will never see units being able to deep strike into close combat. It was savage....
How about hive nodes? Troop heavy list were actually viable w/ out it faltering every freaking time because our Synapse creatures are popped over and over....
Than came our latest book. They gave us Nidzilla and it was king for a lone time. People had to bring list just to deal w/ it and things were great for nids again. Than came 5th and it appears it's time for another change of how we approach things. Well lets take a shot at our various units, and of course I am looking for input by others

HQ
Hive Tyrant
Wait what? T6, W4 commander that can't be instant killed AND can have a retinue of MORE t6 models??!?!? Yes please....

Seriously Hive Tyrants have gone through many variations since Nids first appeared. We were close combat and psychic power gods...than just Close combat...than shooting. Lots of shooting and flying was had. Many list saw 1 winged and 1 shooty Tyrant. Both are still viable in 5th but remember you little gaunts won't be screening him and Tyrant guard still keep him alive for a long time. Some basic ideas for kitting him out.
2 Twinlinked Devourers for 12 reroll shots and reroll wounds a turn at Str 4-5 is impressive. Toss wings and he'll pour shots where you need them
Toss 2 tyrand guard w/ him and let him only rock 1 gun so he can do get Scything talons for more attacks in close combat

Broodlord
Good strength/toughness using outflank w/ a Retinue of close combat monsters(expensive monsters....)to deal w/ people turtling or a heavy weapon squad....very nice. Any smart opponent will setup 13" from an edge because, thanks to GW wisdom, Broodlords can't fleet and assault. Some feel that he requires Extended Carapace to survive

Tyranid Warriors

For a long time these guys were considered a waste of points compared to other units that could the job as well, if not better, than cheaper models. Seems like the tide is slowly changing and they are emerging in more and more list again. Why warriors? A few reasons...

They can get a 4+ cover save really easily by screening them...
You can sorta abuse the way wounding works w/ multi wound models
Templates....templates...templates. Bam
Oh yeah and synapse

A fun setup for them

+1 str, 3 Deathspitters, 1 Barbed Strangler, Leaping. This gives you 4 templates and counter charge capabilities

That's it from me for now...i'll post thoughts on Troops/Fast attacking/Elites/Heavy support in a little while. Please add any thoughts

Elites

Lictors
Well what can we say about these guys?......useless? Point sink?......how about useful when used properly? Let's be clear on a few things though...
a) He can NOT fleet and assault but he CAN deep strike and assault the same turn
b) he can only contest objectives
c) w/ the new counter charge he is likely to die against any sort of 10 man unit

So w/ these things laid out why take one at all? Well I thought they were terrible but have continued to try and use them to try to get the most "bang for my buck" and this is what I have come up w/

Alright don't forget that he allows you to reroll reserve rolls. That is useful. But what I use him for is really simple....
Rear assaults on vehicles that are near terrain or stick him in cover and wait until late in the game to jump out to try and contest a objective.
Remember...+2 to cover save. Sooo that's a mighty 2+Cover save while in most things. Repeat that...2+ cover save is possible....

Why assault rear armour? Because he is strength 6 w/ possible Rending. Against average rear armour he has a good chance of penetrating it

Warriors

See what I did there? They are listed twice. Because you can take lots of em. Now I have not used more than 12 at a time(3 units of 4) but I love em. I sometimes use one JUST as a counter charge unit. So Spinefist and rending claws + Leaping. Alright shooting to lend to my gaunts and BAM!! Jump out w/ 16 Str 5 attacks. Fun times shall be had by all

Troops
*Thought that I would say something here....Troops. For some, myself included, I love Troops. I focus on my troops over my other slots and for some they take the bare minimum(looking at you over there Nidzilla) but to each there own.

Gaunt Brood
Alright...basic gaunt. For a long time neglected in the place of Hormagaunts but the winds of change are a blowing. I want to make a special point of bringing something up about Gaunts in whatever form you take them....And that is With out Numberes
With
Out
Numbers
For 3 more pts a guy, when the unit is wiped out..they come back the next turn from your board edge. Why is this good? 2/3 of missions are objective..one normally is in your deployment zone...do the math Very good stuff

Lets look at what you get in your basic gaunt setups

1. Spine Fist gaunt. 5 to 8pts(if you take W/ out number) andf you get a cheap screening unit + 12" s 3-4 twin linked shots. Not bad at all
2. Termagaunts are coming up at 9pts and for a 1pt difference it's still 12" range but reroll to wound and str 4-5(depending on upgrades)

Here's how it works.....reroll to hit is better against Non 3+ save while reroll to wound is better against 3+ wound guys. Bam

Another point about gaunts(well moreso my thoughts on them)....Don't go to crazy on various upgrades w/ them. Keep em cheap and have plenty of them. Focus fire and, if your bored, throw a unit or 2 into close combat after it shoots. Good times...
Also please do keep in mind, due to counter charge, it may SEEM like a good idea to shoot a unit and than assault it...but you may take more quite a beating in return. Watch what you assault and don't forget about CA. Outnumbering no longer matters, just wounds.

Hormagaunt
Good ol' hormagaunts...use to be the go to beast for close combat. 12" charge + Str 4 made them nasty as all get out for there points. But than new books came out and there point cost started looking a touch high for what they brind. Less and less people seem to be using them but I still personally enjoy a unit because
a) they still draw fire
b) they can still do good damage in CC but watch what you throw them against.
And just like the gaunts...don't go overboard on upgrades.
+ Should be noted that these guys are beast and CAN fleet and assault through cover but can NOT assault up into Ruins

Ripper Swarm
Use to be good friends w/ Nidzilla but can not hold objectives, still contest, and are a pretty good tarpit unit. 3 wounds for 10 pts is not bad at all...use them in that function and they perform well enough

Genestealer Brood
Ahhh...when rending was king so too where these troops. Sadly w/ the nerf to rending less and less people now use Genestealers in any large numbers. Sure there is the odd Shock list out there but nothing like it used to be. Let's not reminiscent too much but instead let's see what they bring

Well you can customize them to suit various needs but realize this can cost a lot of points.
Need to take out some kitted out hq? These guys can deliver w/ Implant attacks + feeder tendrils + flesh hooks to make sure you hit em hard and, hopefully, fast.
A lot of people also like Scything talons for +1 attack but if it's a large unit that starts racking up the points mighty fast.
There is much debate about Carapace upgrade...some feel the points are better spent simply purchasing more Stealers while others swear by it. To each there own I guess

My personal thoughts on em? I like em....but because you can go point heavy w/ them very quickly, I keep my units small and w/ out to many upgrades. Do NOT forget you can hold em in reserve and Outflank w/ scuttlers

Also it is worth mentioning, as Winterman pointed out and I forgot to say anything about, Feeder Tendrils. 1pt upgrade. What do you get for that all mighty 1 point? The ability to reroll misses AND all of your troops w/ in 2" also being able to reroll. That is a very sick upgrade and one of the main reasons I didn't mention it....because mine always have it and I did not think about it Seriously....a unit of 8 + feeder = 1 Termagaunt. That's it

Fast Attack

Ravener Brood
mmmhhh...yummy yummy Raveners. WS 5, 2 wound, 12" charging beast? Don't forget they CAN fleet and assault(unlike the damn Broodlord!!) What weapons to give them since rending was nerfed? .....
I still like Rending/Scything talons personally because you never know when a vehicle might be sitting close. You'll need a 6 to glance anyways so why not turn that Glancing into a penetrating hit? Just asking....
What about Guns on them though? Some people thinks it makes them to point heavy...and in 4th I would agree because you couldn't screen them at all. But they should be running around w/ a 4+ Cover save and maybe some odd shots before assault aren't such a bad thing.
Fun tip of the day.....
Deploy 3 units setup in 4/1/1. keep them close to one another and charge w/ the large group(still scary in close combat) and use the other ones to contest objectives

Gargoyle
You pay 3pts more than Termagaunts(assuming WoN) and get a 12" move and than, in close combat, a 4+ +1 str attack on top of your mighty 1 attack(2 if charging) And they have fleet....don't know why I forgot that. Can not have w/ out number so take that as you will. I have just recently started using them so I can not say to much about them yet


DISCLAIMER!!! I talk often about the 4+ cover save from screening...do NOT forget that if a unit is on a hill shooting at you(or in a building) you do NOT get that Cover save meaning they can still mow down Warriors/Stealers/Ravaners/whatever if your not careful.

Just in case i need this one too

excellent...this is just the thread I was hoping would come about. I'm quite new to the new nids (used to play back in 2nd or 3rd ed....suffice to say it was a long time ago), and Im looking at the various nid builds out there...

So far, in 5th, im a little disappointed!

Point 5: It does kind of nerf fleeting in one way. But at a different angle... they can eithe run (and not shoot) towards you, towards your charge range.. or run to the table egde.

Zoanthropes are great. Add in a few tyrants and fexes and what, exactly, will the other guy shoot at. They can goggle ap3 shots, cant be instant gibbed and the thropes generally get a cover save, depending on how thier modelled. Screamer killer lists, Mmm yeah!

The fact that the broodlord does not have fleet sucks too.

hive tyrants, you gotta love em, i swear by em, no matter type of list im using, theres always space for a tyrant, and maybe even a full retinue of tyrant guard, they've always served me well no matter wat the situation

A lot of what has been said is accurate, but I'll emphasize a few parts:

Tyrants are great, and great in a lot of configurations. Mine are footsloggers with 2x Devourers. I have another that's a CC Flyrant, but he's really not that effective.

Fexes are great, and core to the list. Dakkafexes are great, Gunfexes are great, other configs (maybe even CC can work) are great. A winning list will have Carnifexes in it.

Genestealers are nerfed bad, but still effective troops and worth taking. This is mainly because they're capable of holding objectives without Synapse, and are reasonably fast.

Warriors are a solid unit, and can rival a Dakkafex for cost effective firepower in some cases. On the other hand, they can produce useless, overcosted configs, so care need be taken.

Gaunts are almost totally worthless as combatants, but do will in area denial, tarpitting, sucking up shots, tying up shooters. WoN is almost mandatory. Hormagaunts are never worth taking. I'd suggest looking at Spinefist, Toxin Sacs and WoN for your Gaunts.

Zoanthropes are a solid unit and good source of Synapse.

Lictors and Biovores are worthless, IMO. Raveners might have a place in some lists, but seem far too fragile for their points.

In my experience, the strongest Tyranid builds all revolve around shooting. People assume this is CC list, but really it's a list that shoots very well at short/mid range, and has a few CC units to protect its shooters.

Barbed strangler and Dakka fex's are always good. Tyranid warriors with deathspitters make a really mean template spitting unit with the new template rules. Genestealers are really (scuttling = outflank) and fleeting from a table edge is no laughing matter.

Updated to include Fast attack and troops..heavies are left + some list and basic tactics

Heres what I think:
Hormagaunts: fast assault. Send 'em in to die. Toxin sacks are the only Upgrade realy worth takeing. One Fast and Deadly Tarpit.
CC Carnifex: Scariest unit you've got. Last game my opponent ignored my tyrant's to nuke this guy, and it still Killed: 1 Venerable dreadnaught (2 If you count the Demolisher cannon shot that scattered and blew up a second), 1 Master of the Forge, and s Servitors.
Lictor: I personaly use 1. I find that it can be very useful as a tank hunter or to chase that squad of 5 Space marine scouts off an objective you do not want to launch a major assault on.
Tyrant: Best HQ in the Game. Last game, one of them killed: 1 Space marine Terminator, 1 Venerable Dreadnaught, a couple tactical marines, and would have gotten more, but I kept rolling poorly for Warp Blast.

I normally dont use lictors too often, but when I do its because I want my reserves at the right time, or because Im facing tau or IG.

Phyrix is dead on about gaunts...I have heard people say devourer gaunts are worth a shot, but honestly...they are still gaunts, they die to a stern glare, and making them more expensive wastes pts that could be spent elsewhere in the army.

I personally love stealers. I know they are expensive, but they have their uses against most armies.

I find that 'stealers are the first thing to die in my army, Mainly because they scare my opponent.

Crazy_Carnifex is dead on with that comment.
From the time Genestealers were first introduced they have been nothing but bad-ass! I think that their power has been instinctually hammered into the brains of opponets, other players nautrally kill Genestealers first!
That is why I think they should be taken with Carapace, and no other upgrades. They WILL soak up shots and die, that is great for the rest of your army. Should your genestealers get into combat then all the better, I just think they make a better distractions than a powerful unit.

Gaunts Without Number are awesome. People can't seem to help shooting at them when they're out front, even if they know the gaunts will just come back.

Raveners and Lictors are a little too fragile for my taste. I suppose Raveners could be used as a defensive countercharge unit - hide them behind some GunFexes and bring them out when an assault unit gets within 19".

I actually like a minimum brood of Gargoyles as a fast moving cover save for my Flyrant (4+ invulnerable save as a 100-point upgrade, haha). Mine are modeled at different heights on their flying bases, and bunched together they'll block half of a Flyrant's body (not counting the wings).

Gargoyles *do* die quickly in combat; but if you can manage to get close enough to charge without running, then the fleshborer + Init8 bioplasma + 2 Init4 CC attacks is not bad against many units. Especially when the Flyrant has just unloaded 12 shots into the target unit....

I like what was said in this post, I think we can agree that everything in the list working together (that is a bit of everything) is a solid list. Biovores and gargoyles are kinda useless, gargoyles would be in a niche type army but biovores are just cute.

I love lictors, always have and suggest they are a great asset to have. The tank hunting is the nicest thing and also consider, if you attack a vehicle without a WS, you ALWAYS hit rear armor! The feeder tendrils on call is also another great plus and make leaping warriors/gaunts insanity =).

Biggest problem I have with gargoyles is that they come in metal kits, resulting in me bein' to cheap to buy them.
I tend to give my Stealers Scuttlers only thing scary then Stealers is outflanking stealers or stealers 18 inches from your foes fron lines (12 in DoW) before they even move.

livingregret wrote: Elites

Lictors
... a) He can NOT fleet and assault but he CAN deep strike and assault the same turn

Question, I always thought the lictor should be able to DS then assault on the same turn (of course I also think SM DP should be able to DS and shoot but I digress...). I haven't been able to find rules to support this. Where are they!? I wan't them!

A great post. As a recent hatched Tyranid player I find this analysis very interesting. Thanks!

Mettius wrote: Elites

Question, I always thought the lictor should be able to DS then assault on the same turn (of course I also think SM DP should be able to DS and shoot but I digress...). I haven't been able to find rules to support this. Where are they!? I wan't them!

Look up the entry on Lictors in the Tyranid book. It's a little sentence at the end of Secret Deployment

+ I am glad that people have liked my reviews so far, sorry I haven't posted the other sections yet but I will hopefully tonight

Yeah, it looks good so far.

Another comment about stealers. I know they die fast (as said before everything shoots at them first), so its all about numbers. A single squad of 8 goes down easy, 40 stealers on the other hand takes a bit more effort, and with that many chances are you will get into combat. Give them scuttlers for good measure and you have a nasty selection of troops coming in at 760 pts. Add carapace/FT/FH to taste.

It is a good start and nothing that I seriously object to except the viability of raveners. I'd add or elaborate on the followin

-Should mention Lictors have to take a dangerous terrain test when they arrive in 5ed.

-Genestealers are Troops, not elites.

-Feeder Tendril discussion needed on stealers. The ability to reroll missies is golden. The ability for any other unit within 2" to reroll is even better. They are a mcuh more efficient way of getting the reroll over using a lictor or broodlord.

-Synapse and its affects on gaunt viability in 5ed assault should be covered. Outnumbering having no benefit now makes it pretty easy to gut gaunts in close combat (and even hormagaunts if facing a dedicated assault unit). The fact that genestealers don't have to rely on synapse should also be mentioned.

-Hormagaunts being beasts and thus unable to go into the upper levels of ruins should be mentioned.

-Raveners were nerfed hard in 5ed. While stealers can take 1pt feeder tendrils and thus negate most of the rending nerf, raveners can't take it. Also the inability to consistently hide them (not getting them shot was what made them workable in 4ed, 4+ cover save does not really help much) and the fact they no longer score really adds to the nerfing. Yes they can take deathspitters which are boosted in 5ed but warriors are a better platform for that.

IMO they don't have a role in the army that can't be better covered by another unit.

Question, I always thought the lictor should be able to DS then assault on the same turn (of course I also think SM DP should be able to DS and shoot but I digress...). I haven't been able to find rules to support this. Where are they!? I wan't them!

The Lictor's rules themselves -- Secret Deployment is the name if I recall correctly. It states clearly you can assault the turn you arrive.

good call winterman. This thread could go on for years...dont give away too much though. Most of my regular opponents check dakka.

Thanks Winter, moved some things around(forgot Genestealers were not Elite.....)and added some more info. Still need to do the Heavy supports....

One thing that kinda hurt Nid is that now there is is no more Target Priority. I used to run my gaunts purposely close to the enemy just in hopes that they would have to shoot at them. Granted now we can use them as cover but still it was run to make a squad of Fire warriors fire at 3 Gaunts and get charged my some 24 Hormagaunts, good times :lol:.

Only weakness I really see to 'Nids is that they lack good ranged standoff capabilities.

Having been on the receiving end of a Nidzilla list with tons of Stealers recently, I can attest that Scuttlers makes the Stealers much, much more of a problem than Infiltrate or frontal assaults ever did. Defensive positioning to avoid the Stealers usually results in models being bunched up, which makes them more vulnerable to Barbed Stranglers, etc. Stealers are not only still a threat, they are seriously nasty in combo with the big bugs.

Yeah. The Feeder Tendril/Scuttler Stealer almost makes up for the Rending Nerf.

yeah all good points, rending did get served but the cover and feedertendril/scuttlers is amazing..

as for disadvantages I hate that nids cant consolidate into new units (may be "balanced" but man i miss killing 2 units a turn )

One thing to note on a Shooting Tyrant with Guard is to take Lash Whips on all the units instead of something like..Scything Talons.

Just with 2 Tyrant Guard and 1 Tyrant this will be -3 to attacks, against say.. a kited out 10 man strong Striking Scorpion unit. This still leaves them 1 attack each. Who here thinks they will be walking away from that combat????

Its a good defensive measure to make sure your Tyrant keeps shooting every turn.

EDIT : I just found this you will find it useful...
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=282002&posted=1#post282002

Alright, I retract that statement about standoff capabilities. They just do not have troops with standoff.