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Ratling Snipers have a special rule "go to ground' which allows them to be pinned instead of taking a morale test. No mention of a cover save bonus. In the main rulebook, you can go to ground and get a cover save bonus, but still have to take a morale test. The question is, does the existence of the codex "go to ground" rule nullify the main rulebook rules that govern units that have gone to ground?

There should be an "Other" option.

IMO they have acces to both rules and can choose which one they woould like to use. No mix-and-matching though. It is one or the other.

i agree with steel.

The +1 to cover saves listed under their go to ground rule is a global one that applies at all times, there is no clash between these rules, when being shot at they may opt to go to ground (BRB) for +1 to thier cover save (a total of +2 including the codex rules) and if they are required to take a morale check due to losing 25% casualties they can additionally opt to be pinned according to codex rules, for once again +2 to cover saves.

What you seem to be missing, is that being pinned is exactly the same as going to ground per the 5th edition rules(including the cover save bonus), so when they opt to be pinned instead of take the morale check, they are going to ground.

The only reason I could think that you couldn't do both would be that the codex rule always overrules the rulebook rule. However, since Go to Ground is a general rule and not a Universal Special Rule, I don't think it applies. I think Drunkspleen is right.

from the 40k rulebook FAQ
"Q. If I find a reference to a unit that is ‘pinned’,
does it mean a unit that has gone to ground?
A. Yes, ‘pinned’ is simply a short way of saying
‘gone to ground by failing a pinning test’."

So yes, the official ruling is that "pinned" and "gone to ground" are the same. So if a unit can voluntarily pin itself, is pinned by failing a pinning test, or has some special rule allowing it to pin itself or go to ground in any way, it gains the +1 cover save bonus.

I really wish they just had a glossary of terms in the rulebook with official definitions of everything. It would make it oh so much clearer when trying to solve these sorts of rule discussions

I will go with one not listed and say you have an option for either the rulebook 'go to ground' and the codex 'go to ground'.

Granted that both use the same words to define a role. They are obviously different and have 2 totally different meanings and roles.

Honestly though, it sounds like the rulebook version of 'go to ground' is way better than the codex version.

padixon wrote:I will go with one not listed and say you have an option for either the rulebook 'go to ground' and the codex 'go to ground'.

Granted that both use the same words to define a role. They are obviously different and have 2 totally different meanings and roles.

Honestly though, it sounds like the rulebook version of 'go to ground' is way better than the codex version.

If it says pinned, then it's the same thing. Rulebook 'go to ground' = pinned = codex 'go to ground', so you get your +1 cover save. They obviously have something special that happens when they do go to ground, but they are quite obviously not different things.

Somebody post the exact wording of the rules though so that we can make sure.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

padixon wrote:I will go with one not listed and say you have an option for either the rulebook 'go to ground' and the codex 'go to ground'.

Granted that both use the same words to define a role. They are obviously different and have 2 totally different meanings and roles.

Honestly though, it sounds like the rulebook version of 'go to ground' is way better than the codex version.

If it says pinned, then it's the same thing. Rulebook 'go to ground' = pinned = codex 'go to ground', so you get your +1 cover save. They obviously have something special that happens when they do go to ground, but they are quite obviously not different things.

Somebody post the exact wording of the rules though so that we can make sure.

Actually they are different look at the qualifier to their 'go to ground' versus the rulebooks qualifier.

Ratlings: must have to take a morale check to 'go to ground'
Rulebook: Must suffer a wound to 'go to ground'

The qualifiers are different, and even their applications are different

Ratlings: are pinned instead of taking a morale test
Rulebook: are 'gone to ground' and doesn't need a morale test

I know they are similar, and this is just my opinion anyways. But, that is my third option of one not listed in the poll. Why fight it brother.

Edit: Besides, you can still have both because of the order of events of both rules:

Here we go: 1) Ratlings get shot at and take enough wounds that would require a morale test if the cover saves would fail
2a) Ratling player decides to 'go to ground' as per the rulebook prior making any saves and hence improves his cover save by 1
2b) Ratling player decides not to 'go to ground' as per the rulebook and makes his saves. Failing enough saves to force a morale test
3) Ratling player decides to use 'go to ground' from his codex and substitutes a pinning condition instead of making a morale test.

See you *can* have both. Ratlings seemed to have gotten a little better.

I've added the either/or option to the poll.

I'd have to go with the option of Both. Ignoring the fact the rules have the same name they are completely different. the Universal rule is for cover saves, and is chosen after rolling to wound but before armor saves. While the Ratling rule is after wounds have been taken in place of a moral test. The two rules don't conflict, aside from the name.

Also don't forget that ratlings are "small" and get a natural +1 to cover so you go to groung (universal rule) your getting a +2

padixon wrote:
The qualifiers are different, and even their applications are different

Ratlings: are pinned instead of taking a morale test
Rulebook: are 'gone to ground' and doesn't need a morale test

I know they are similar, and this is just my opinion anyways. But, that is my third option of one not listed in the poll. Why fight it brother.

Emphasis mine. Anything that is pinned is BRB 'gone to ground,' no matter what the qualifier is. That they may pin themselves for a different reason is irrelevant, they are pinned and thus get a cover save. What matters here is that the guys have hit the deck. If they do so because they hit the deck to avoid sniper fire (causes pinning), barrage fire(causes pinning), heavy fire (go to ground), or because of the ratlings special rule, it's all the same. In each case they are pinned, and thus get the save.

Just look at the section of the FAQ i quoted. All references to "gone to ground" refer to the unit being pinned. If a unit is pinned, it gets a +1 save. Ratlings are pinned, and thus get a +1 save.

End of story

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

padixon wrote:
The qualifiers are different, and even their applications are different

Ratlings: are pinned instead of taking a morale test
Rulebook: are 'gone to ground' and doesn't need a morale test

I know they are similar, and this is just my opinion anyways. But, that is my third option of one not listed in the poll. Why fight it brother.

Emphasis mine. Anything that is pinned is BRB 'gone to ground,' no matter what the qualifier is. That they may pin themselves for a different reason is irrelevant, they are pinned and thus get a cover save. What matters here is that the guys have hit the deck. If they do so because they hit the deck to avoid sniper fire (causes pinning), barrage fire(causes pinning), heavy fire (go to ground), or because of the ratlings special rule, it's all the same. In each case they are pinned, and thus get the save.

Just look at the section of the FAQ i quoted. All references to "gone to ground" refer to the unit being pinned. If a unit is pinned, it gets a +1 save. Ratlings are pinned, and thus get a +1 save.

End of story

Lets try this again, please read the *whole* post this time, okay.

The guard codex "go to ground" takes place **after** saves are made and morale tests are taken
The rulebook "go to ground" takes place **before** saves are made and applies a +1 to the cover save.

Honestly, is this hard to understand, let me re-post and maybe you will catch it this time

Here we go: 1) Ratlings get shot at and take enough wounds that would require a morale test if the cover saves would fail
2a) Ratling player decides to 'go to ground' as per the rulebook prior making any saves and hence improves his cover save by 1
2b) Ratling player decides not to 'go to ground' as per the rulebook and makes his saves. Failing enough saves to force a morale test
3) Ratling player decides to use 'go to ground' from his codex and substitutes a pinning condition instead of making a morale test.

See you *can* have both. Ratlings seemed to have gotten a little better.

Try to quote my entire post next time that way you may catch yourself before you end up showing us that you only read what you want to read.

**important** they can do either one, depending on which one they choose to take as per my time frame above.

EDIT: Dude, I am not arguing that pinning does not give you a "go to ground' effect. I have no idea why you think I am. I *am* saying is that you can use either rule, as they are different.

padixon wrote:

**important** they can do either one, depending on which one they choose to take as per my time frame above.

EDIT: Dude, I am not arguing that pinning does not give you a "go to ground' effect. I have no idea why you think I am. I *am* saying is that you can use either rule, as they are different.

And what exactly do you think I'm arguing? I think you mistook the disagreement i have here. The question is whether the ratlings get a +1 cover save bonus for their "go to ground" rule, which they quite obviously do (causes pinning, pinning = rulebook 'go to ground = +1 cover save bonus). You seem to think that I'm arguing that they're the same rule, which isn't the case. I'm just arguing that they both have the same result: a pinned unit and thus a cover save bonus. The ratling 'go to ground,' however, gets their bonus purely against successive rounds of shooting since it hasn't come into effect until *after* they have taken casualties from the current shooting. Thus basically, you can use *either* rule, and get a +1 cover save for either as well.

Looks like we're just arguing completely different things. I apologize if I came off as condescending. When I read your posts I thought you were essentially arguing along the lines of option 1 in the book, where they get both rules but the codex variety doesn't get a +1 cover save.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

padixon wrote:

**important** they can do either one, depending on which one they choose to take as per my time frame above.

EDIT: Dude, I am not arguing that pinning does not give you a "go to ground' effect. I have no idea why you think I am. I *am* saying is that you can use either rule, as they are different.

And what exactly do you think I'm arguing? I think you mistook the disagreement i have here. The question is whether the ratlings get a +1 cover save bonus for their "go to ground" rule, which they quite obviously do (causes pinning, pinning = rulebook 'go to ground = +1 cover save bonus). You seem to think that I'm arguing that they're the same rule, which isn't the case. I'm just arguing that they both have the same result: a pinned unit and thus a cover save bonus. The ratling 'go to ground,' however, gets their bonus purely against successive rounds of shooting since it hasn't come into effect until *after* they have taken casualties from the current shooting. Thus basically, you can use *either* rule, and get a +1 cover save for either as well.

Looks like we're just arguing completely different things. I apologize if I came off as condescending. When I read your posts I thought you were essentially arguing along the lines of option 1 in the book, where they get both rules but the codex variety doesn't get a +1 cover save.

lol, I guess we both mistook each other, sorry brother.

What if you go to ground before taking casualties, in order to get that 2+ cover save, then have 25% casualties anyway? Can you use the ratling rule after taking casualties, to avoid a morale test, even if you have already gone to ground?

I would say they get both, as they are a rather unique unit.

There's no reason they couldn't go to ground before rolling saves per the core rules and then proceed to go to ground to avoid a morale test for 25% casualties per thier codex in the same turn, other than Sonobovich seems to have decided otherwhise, which doesn't carry much weight really.

They can do both because that's what the rules say.

edit: Double Post

Drunkspleen, I have actually been playing it that way but I posted this thread to make sure there was nothing fishy about it. It's slightly confusing because of two rules having the same name.

The codex rule applies. Note that it only applies when in cover. Out of cover, normal GTG applies.

If they are in cover, they get +1 from their GTG. If they then have to take a morale test from shooting, they can elect to be pinned instead, but would they get +2 to cover?

If not in cover, they can elect to be pinned if they have to take a morale check and get a 6 up cover save, the same as any unit.

I guess I voted wrong. I thought A but should have picked B.

Homer