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A new article titled Tactica Chaos Space Marines (5th ed) has been added to the dakka articles system.

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Thanks for this, Grifthin. I added section headers. The article is under review by our
skilled 40k article mods (i.e. NOT ME) in terms of titling the piece.

I did some reformatting, fixed typos and changed the capitalization. Especially the latter was a bit of work, since my first language (like the OP's, I guess) tends to do a lot of capitalization (mostly on nouns), so I might have missed something by habit. If someone else would have a look at it, I'd be grateful.

Notabene: As a chaos player, I disagree with several of the opinions voiced. Since this is an opinion piece, not a lexical article, I'd hate to delete contents or just change them. So how do we do it? Half the wikis I work with add comments within the text (usually a separate paragraph starting with "comment by... :"), half write separate articles.

Personally, I believe in the latter, because it does not break the flow of the text. But if you go this way, your articles will look like on the c2-wiki (and I've never seen a wiki-gnome merging this into a whole article on a smaller wiki, which supposedly happens). Yet this means people who just want to comment on one item would also need to write a whole article.

What's the usual way to do it here?

May I translate this article to put it on www.cytadela.pl ??

Since I disagree with several parts of the article and I do not know anything about the copyright of the articles, I'd recommend you write your own based on the information given here, Stelek's (http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Stelek%27s_Chaos_Space_Marine_Army_Analysis) and your own experience. This will make it much shorter, more personal and have no pesky copyright strings attached. ;-)

Very, very useful article for getting the most out of your CSM army. A lot of it seems 'glass half full' (Ive read some really negative reviews of this codex), but cos Ive dedicated myself to the dark powers, i look forward to impementing some your ideas.

Cheers

As a starting chaos player, this was really useful, i learned a lot of it and I'm sure i will use the most of it in my game.
But how does a spearhead tactic work exactly? i play Black Legion myself, but i'm still making the army, but it's not quite finished yet.

Good but needs to be proof read. It reminds me of some basic ideas that I've been wary of for so long, might use them again.

Really good step by step codex breakdown
My tactic is to take 9 noise marines with sonic blasters/powersword/doom siren and mount them in a land raider. Add Lucius the eternal, charge forward, disembark, assault fire with sonic blasters and doom siren then charge...

NOTHING stands up to it

I'll have a whole lot more to write about this later, but just on first glance, Plague Marines aren't T5. More to come!


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Weapons: In general I would add what platforms they are capable of coming on. Many times it's not the weapon that's unpopular, it's whatever can take it. Bolter math is a little fuzzy. For Flamer I would add that Havocs can be tuned into a kickass assault squad with 4, and I would also emphasize them being the cheapest weapon in the codex (often getting more results at a time than many others). Lascannon is good at *light* armor, ok at anything else. Multi-melta can also be used if you don't want to risk getting burned by a Plasma gun (even though it's TL, so that's kinda silly logic). Plasma Cannon is also on Oblitz. Nobody takes Plasma pistolsanymore, to put it in a nut shell, and they're stupidly over-priced for screwing your charges up. They were priced to be able to rapid fire, which they can't. Reaper Autocannon has shorter range than an Autocannon.

Powers: Warptime lets you pick, read the definition of a Re-roll in the rulebook. "A re-roll is exactly as it sounds - pick up the dice you WISH to re-roll and roll them again." So there isn't room for interpretation beyond that as far as I'm concerned. This also lets you stick in combat if you need to by missing or failing to wound. Doombolt and Wind of Chaos have massive synergy with Warptime. Bolt of Change is a crappier, longer-range Melta that costs too much. Leave the AP1 to real guns. Fists help you win Assaults, and makes Chaos better than regular marines in a definitive sort of way in CC.

Marks:

Khorne - In a 10-man squad, treat it like Counter-attack for 3 points a model. The extra when charging is just gravy.

Tzeentch - Forgetting something? Let's you use two psychic powers a turn. AKA, Warptime+Wind of Change.

Nurgle - PRETEND boosts toughness by 1. This is really important to include.

Daemon Weapons: Suck for being strength 4. They have specialized uses, but that's it. Not to mention you have to waste an HQ slot on something with a power weapon at strength 4 (they really couldn't fit a 5 or 6 in there?) that will get insta-gibbed every single game.

Characters: Who exactly is Kharn sucking off? That just confused me. He will also be insta-gibbed every game. Havocs are a better flame retinue for Huron than wasting points on non-infiltrating Chosen.

Chaos lords can insta-die, and Daemon princes can last longer. Even with tucking in a unit, they tend to do a hell of a lot more.

Chosen: Please note that if you're going to put ANY CC upgrades on them you might as well get termies, as they're so much better for the points.

Possessed: You leave out something really important that they lose: Guns. Rhino gets popped? Have fun getting mowed down by fire. They outlive their usefulness quickly, and without power weapons will not be able to swing combat in their favor against any decently armored opponent much of the time.

CSM: I love. Read my article in my sig

Plaguers: Aren't T5. Totally forgot Defensive Grenades. Can take two specials beneath a 10-man squad, so technically some of the best flamer carriers in the game. If you have any spare points and haven't used up both slots, take two flamers for 10 points. FNP also works when seeing if "Gets Hot!" kills you.

Noise Marines: Only justify themselves when kitted out if they stand still for 4 turns of the game and have targets for those 4 turns. For 25 points you get 1 1/2 standard CSM. Total waste of points IMO.

Zerkers: Also note that they lose their good gun.

Bikes: Aren't T5.

Spawn: They're scary in high numbers and have randomly really good Assault range. They're just over-priced tar pits, and are great for locking up things with Power weapons and the like since saves are a foreign concept to them.

Havocs: Love 'em.

Pred: The dakka does not match the cost.

Rhino: I consider myself a bit of an expert on (feel free to disagree though ). You'll rarely more slow enough for Havoc Launchers to make their points back, so always, ALWAYS take the 5 point extra TL bolter. Against hordes on a bunch of Rhinos it's invaluable. In Nightfight you will get extra shots for your searchlight to go off. At the very least, you pay 5 points for a bonus immobilized or weapon destroyed result. Awesome as hell.

Lesser daemons: definitely good for tieing up power weapons. They won't win combat on their own. Their ability to assault when they come in is what you're paying for for the most part.

Greater: All of my CSM Champs have P-fist and Combi-melta, so 65 points. I can find something that the GD can take out for 165 points the turn he comes in nearly every game. The more champs you have, the better position he'll come in. Great for when you're losing a combat or are destined to lose a squad anyway. In a game I played last friday I had a squad win combat with just an Icon bearer and a Champ left. They hopped in another squad's Rhino 'til GD came along

Lesser Daemons are BRILLIANT for meat-grinding Hordes on the charge.


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a group of ten, you get a deacent 30 attacks and your paints cost is almost Nil.
Also good against Special Charachters, becasue of the number of attacks and Inv.

13 is not "almost nil." 13 is 2 points from "I have a gun and power armor," which is usually much better. Plus against hordes, with the sheer number of attacks coming at you, you'll lose combat with your 5+ Invuln. The special character part I agree with you on, your regular troops would get wiped anyway, at least they can stick til the big guys get there

Dont forget Cannerus, DS w/ icons doesnt scatter. Thats always useful. (Besides, with the models looking & painted nasty, a bunch of them appearing can cause some sweat-beads too)

I'd feel better about them if you could squeeze in a "champ" with Rending/any other CC upgrade or mark them somehow. This has all been said a million times before though.

You never really mentioned any of the steeds avilable to sorcerers and chaos lords.. Would a disc of tzeentch be a good addition to a sorcerer if he zoomed around with raptors? Or would that and his multiple psychic powers be too expensive and not worth it in the long run?

I'll atest to having seen a Tzeentch Lord do serious damage leading a pack or raptors on his disc. Plus if you're into tzeentch you can model all your raptors on discs and it looks very cool!

What about putting the raptors and sorcerer on screamers of tzeentch? And I guess that the raptors could have like thousand sons heads or something... hmmm... I'll think on that. Thanks for the idea mate!

cheers for this article, I have no input, but I've been considering starting a chaos space marine army for a while based on the word bearers as in "the first heretic" book and this has really helped provide me a very deep insight into chaos space marines and how they play/work on the table - so once again, cheers!