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Eldar Pathfinder Ranger Long Rifles, Eldar codex, page 38 (Heavy 1 , Sniper, Pinning)

Any shooting roll to hit of a 6 counts as AP1. In a Pathfinder unit, any shooting roll to hit of 5+ counts as having AP1

Rulebook, page 31

In addition all sniper weapons are also rending and pinning weapons

How do I actually do it?

Any 5+ on the to hit rolls (AP1) will still need to be picked up and rolled again in order to determine if the shot actually wounds, thus giving the chance of rolling a 6 (AP2).
Do I roll the "5+ to hits" seperatly or something else.

My point is; if I don't do something special, I might end up with having more AP1/2 shots than the unit actually fired.

How do you guys do it?

In essence, the result of the 'to hit' roll effectively changes the profile of the gun, therefor you should treat them as different weapons from then onwards. You roll them seperately when rolling to wound/pen.

The reason to roll them seperately is to avoid following kind of situation:
-I rolled a 4 and 6 to hit (one normal, one AP1)
-I roll both to wounds toghether with identical dice and come up with 1 and 4.
The problem is i can't positively determine if that wound belongs to the AP- or the AP1 shot.

The rest is done as usual:
Apply rending when applicable.
Apply pinning when applicable.

The way I've seen it done goes something like this:

(Squad of 5)

5 Shots roll to hit (lets say a 3,4,5,5 come up) Since they are pathfinders the 5's count as AP1.
The 2 AP1 shots are exchanged for red dice (or other color) then you roll to wound Non AP 1 give you a (4 and 6) therefore 1 rending shot.
The 2 AP1 net you a 4 and 5 so 1 rending 1 not rending.

Your total is 1 AP-, 1 Rending (from normal), 1 AP1, 1AP1 Rending shots.

Your AP 1 rending shot will get an extra D3 verse vehicles but besides that the AP1 shots that wound wont change their profile if they gain rending as well (since rending is AP2)

Hope this is clear.

Steelmage99 wrote:Eldar Pathfinder Ranger Long Rifles, Eldar codex, page 38 (Heavy 1 , Sniper, Pinning)

Any shooting roll to hit of a 6 counts as AP1. In a Pathfinder unit, any shooting roll to hit of 5+ counts as having AP1

Rulebook, page 31

In addition all sniper weapons are also rending and pinning weapons

How do I actually do it?

Any 5+ on the to hit rolls (AP1) will still need to be picked up and rolled again in order to determine if the shot actually wounds, thus giving the chance of rolling a 6 (AP2).
Do I roll the "5+ to hits" seperatly or something else.

My point is; if I don't do something special, I might end up with having more AP1/2 shots than the unit actually fired.

How do you guys do it?

Against non-vehicle units there is absolutely no issue at all. Currently there is no non-vehicle unit that differentiates between AP1 and AP2 shots so if you're hitting a non-vehicle unit then any 'to hit' roll that qualifies under the pathfinder roll and any 'to wound' roll of 6 is going to ignore armor saves.

The rules for rending against vehicles are different. They don't actually specify anything AP wise when shooting against vehicles, just that they rend on an armor pen roll of '6'. Soooo, against vehicles you get the AP1 bonus if you qualify on your 'to hit' roll, but then also get the bonus penetration if you roll a '6' for armor penetration.


So actually when you take a closer look at it the rules work just fine without conflict.

Here is the thing; Lets take 10 Pathfinders. I roll ten dice and get six 5+s (not likely but bear with me).

I then pick up all ten dice and roll to wound (assuming they all hit of course). I roll five 6s (it might happen!..)

I now have a total of eleven AP1/2s. So I have to differentiate somehow between the dice that roll 5+ on the to hit roll and dice that roll 6+ on the wound roll.

Im just curious how somebody else might do it.

Steelmage99 wrote:Here is the thing; Lets take 10 Pathfinders. I roll ten dice and get six 5+s (not likely but bear with me).

I then pick up all ten dice and roll to wound (assuming they all hit of course). I roll five 6s (it might happen!..)

I now have a total of eleven AP1/2s. So I have to differentiate somehow between the dice that roll 5+ on the to hit roll and dice that roll 6+ on the wound roll.

Im just curious how somebody else might do it.

As with anything else in the game when you're dealing with a different type of weapon effect you just either need to roll those dice separately or swap 'em out for different colored dice.

I do it the way Caspar describes--any rolls to hit of 5 or 6 I swap out the dice for a different color if it's going to make a difference that some of the hits are AP1.

yakface wrote:
The rules for rending against vehicles are different. They don't actually specify anything AP wise when shooting against vehicles, just that they rend on an armor pen roll of '6'. Soooo, against vehicles you get the AP1 bonus if you qualify on your 'to hit' roll, but then also get the bonus penetration if you roll a '6' for armor penetration.

Don't sniper rifles still roll 2d6 for penetration? Which of the two dice needs to be a 6 to rend?

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Don't sniper rifles still roll 2d6 for penetration? Which of the two dice needs to be a 6 to rend?

Nope. Sniper weapons roll a single D6 now with a base Str of 3.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I do it the way Caspar describes--any rolls to hit of 5 or 6 I swap out the dice for a different color if it's going to make a difference that some of the hits are AP1.

What about if you are shooting at Space Marines (3+ armour save)? Do you just add all the 5+s from the to-hit test and all the 6+s from the to-wound test? Because that would be wrong even if it doesnt make a difference wether they are AP1 or 2.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:I do it the way Caspar describes--any rolls to hit of 5 or 6 I swap out the dice for a different color if it's going to make a difference that some of the hits are AP1.

What about if you are shooting at Space Marines (3+ armour save)? Do you just add all the 5+s from the to-hit test and all the 6+s from the to-wound test? Because that would be wrong even if it doesnt make a difference wether they are AP1 or 2.

Perhaps i wasn't clear enough (thought i was)...

do your rolls to hit, any ap 1 shots switch dice colors or roll seperatly to wound.
any 6's to wound cause rending.

so lets say ( 1 shot) you roll a 5 to hit, then a 6 to wound - therfore your sniper shot gets both AP1 and AP2 against infantry (makes no difference) however since only 1 shot was fired only 1 SM will get killed.

Hope this makes more since...

I'm not sure what you are missing Steelmage, but I'll walk through the process to hopefully clarify things.

We start with 10 pathfinders shooting at 10 marines. We roll 10 white dice to hit. The results are as follows:

1,1,2,3,3,4,5,5,6,6

The ones and twos miss, so we discard those.

The Threes and Fours are hits, but are not AP1. We set those white dice aside for the wound roll.

The Fives and Sixes are AP1, but have not yet wounded. We replace these with red dice.

Now we roll the four red dice (which are AP1) and the three white dice (which are still AP -).

The rolls are as follows:

White: 3,4,6
Red:1,2,4,6

All we need to worry about for the red dice is if they wounded or not. Sniper Rifles wound on a 4+ so that is 2 AP1 wounds. The 6 is also a rending wound, but unless we were shooting at a vehicle this does not improve it any. It does not count as a wound at AP1 and a wound at AP2. It is a single wound.

The white dice give us one regular wound (with AP-) and one rending wound (which is AP2)

Thus the marines take 3 wounds with no armor save, and one wound with a save.

I hope that clarifies things. As long as you replace the dice that roll 5+ on the first roll (or roll them seperately) then you do not risk any of the doubling up you were worried about.

What I pointed out was that Flavious wrote that he would use different coloured dice if the AP was relevant.

I totally understand the system of using different coloured dice. If you took the time to read what I actually wrote and what I responded to, it is painfully obvious.

Well then, Excuse me for trying to help.

Steelmage99 wrote:What I pointed out was that Flavious wrote that he would use different coloured dice if the AP was relevant.

I totally understand the system of using different coloured dice. If you took the time to read what I actually wrote and what I responded to, it is painfully obvious.

Yes, IF the AP was relevant, which is to say, if AP1 or 2 would have some impact on the saves the enemy are taking, for example when shooting ork boyz, the base AP of the rifle is sufficient to deny them an armour save and the addition of AP 1 or 2 to the shots is meaningless. In this situation he doesn't bother swapping the dice out. You may understand the idea of seperating different weapon profiles by dice colour but you clearly didn't fully understand Flavius' post so I wouldn't jump down the throat of people trying to help you.

Your example of Ork Boys muddies the issue as the base AP ignores their armour save anyway (as you point out yourself). Try with marines instead.

Even if the AP is irrelevant, he still has to swap dice colour. With Marines it doesn't matter wether the AP is 1 or 2, but if he doesn't switch the dice he can end up with more AP1/2 shots than the unit actually fired.

He cannot add the condition that it is "only if it is relevant if the AP is 1 or 2, do I swap dice".


Could you please explain the following situation very slowly to me (like im a 6-year old ).

1. 10 Pathfinders shooting at Marines.
2. No swapping of dice (as the exact AP "increase" is irrelevant. Both ignore the Marines 3+).
3. 6 Pathfinders will roll 5+ to hit. (all hit)
4. 5 Pathfinders will roll 6+ to wound.

How many AP1/2 shoots do you get, without having a way to determine if a given shot is both AP1 and AP2?

Steelmage99 wrote:Your example of Ork Boys muddies the issue as the base AP ignores their armour save anyway (as you point out yourself). Try with marines instead.

Even if the AP is irrelevant, he still has to swap dice colour. With Marines it doesn't matter wether the AP is 1 or 2, but if he doesn't switch the dice he can end up with more AP1/2 shots than the unit actually fired.

He cannot add the condition that it is "only if it is relevant if the AP is 1 or 2, do I swap dice".


Could you please explain the following situation very slowly to me (like im a 6-year old ).

1. 10 Pathfinders shooting at Marines.
2. No swapping of dice (as the exact AP "increase" is irrelevant. Both ignore the Marines 3+).
3. 6 Pathfinders will roll 5+ to hit. (all hit)
4. 5 Pathfinders will roll 6+ to wound.

How many AP1/2 shoots do you get, without having a way to determine if a given shot is both AP1 and AP2?

You need to swap dice. It isn't that the AP change is irrelevant, finding to total number of low AP shots is. Any AP 1 shots that are rending will in effect not add to your low AP total.

edit: just roll the AP 1 hits in one pile, and the normal hits in another.

What about if you are shooting at Space Marines (3+ armour save)? Do you just add all the 5+s from the to-hit test and all the 6+s from the to-wound test?

No you don't. I think you are confusing what Flavius meant.

If AP1 is relevent (eg when shooting at anything with better armor then the stock AP6 of the ranger sniper rifle, like the marines in your examples) then he swaps out with different colors.

So in your example -- one WOULD swap dice at step 2 and thus avoid any issues.
HTH

Who cares northing can save a AP2 weapon any way???

..... am i right??

Whats so hard with rolling the dice.. picking up all the 5+'s (for pathfinders) and then picking all the 3's & 4's..

then rolling both sets. The first set 4's to wound no armor save. The second, 4's, 5's = wound but with an armor save, 6's = a rend thats no armor save.

Ive played with them & its quite stright forward.

I agree with Razerous, its really a pretty straight-forward process that is making me wonder why I read all the way to the bottom of this train wreck. There is no way to roll to-wound rolls without separating out the 5 and 6 to-hit rolls. You either get too few or too many Armor Piercing wounds, depending on which way you botch the rules.

Steelmage99 wrote:3. 6 Pathfinders will roll 5+ to hit. (all hit)
4. 5 Pathfinders will roll 6+ to wound.

This seems to be the points you aren't getting. You can just state that 5 of the Pathfinders shots will rend without knowing if their shots have already been upgraded to AP1 due to a 5+ to hit roll. A weapon rolling a 5+ to hit and subsequently rolling a 6 to wound doesn't cause 1 AP1 and 1 AP2 wound, it causes 1 AP1 wound as you use the best AP available. This is also the reason why people are telling you to either to take different colored dice for the hits which rolled 5+ to hit, or to roll these hits seperately from the regular hits.